Flak 88mm Shells?
Flak 88mm Shells?
Can someone explain a bit about 88mm shells to me, did they have proximity or time delayed fuses? or did they just explode on impact? Was the 88 with high explosive shells used against infantry? Was the 88 used in a conventional artillery role?
Thanks guys
Thanks guys
It depends on what type of ammo they are firing. One thing that is very different in the german military from the western Allies is that they are not so restrictive about the use of their weapons. All German guns have a fairly wide variety of ammo used. It is the role of every gun to attack soft and hard targets. It is very much a western allied point of view that you should have 1 type of gun to attack tanks. You should have another to engage infantry. ANd another to engage aircraft.
When used in the field art role, 88 often used time delay shells to airburst the shells over the heads of the attacking infantry. they also often used impact fuses to take out foritifications and other conventional direct fire roles. AA shels had 2 fuses. One to explode on time delay, but if they hit a planes directlythey would also explode. I am not aware of a proximity fuse being developed.
When used in the field art role, 88 often used time delay shells to airburst the shells over the heads of the attacking infantry. they also often used impact fuses to take out foritifications and other conventional direct fire roles. AA shels had 2 fuses. One to explode on time delay, but if they hit a planes directlythey would also explode. I am not aware of a proximity fuse being developed.
Hello Kranix.
Basically there were three mains groups of 88mm rounds.
1)The ammunition for Flak 18/36/37 and KwK 36.
2)The ammunition for Flak 41.
3)The ammunition for the Pak 43 and KWK43 and derivate.
The shell can be divided in two main group
The H.E. Hight explosive (Sprenggranate)
And the A.P. Amour Piercing (Panzergranate).
Each shell was designated as to whether it was nose fuzed H.E. round(Kopfzündung or Kz.)or bse fuzed(Bodenzunder or Bd.z.)the latter being used with A.P. rounds.
For the nose fuzed H.E.time fuzes were used but by the end of the war these fuzes incorpored a percussion element.
A 88mm Fuzes-a Summary
A.Z 23/28 Nose Fuze,could be adjusted for immediate action or 0.1 sec.delay.
A.z 38 Nose fuse.Impact.
Zt.Z S/30 Fg Nose fuze.Centrifugal weight action,variable up to 30 sec
Dopp.Z. Nose Fuze Clockwork.
Bd.Zf.8.8cm.Pzgr. Base fuze avialable in two sizes,a percussion fuze it could be varied to provide a delay to allow the HEAT to explode inside a vehicle.
Bd.Z. 5127 Base Fuze,variable like the Bd.Zf.88mm Pzgr.
Bd.Z.5103&5103/1 Base Fuze variable.
Some experiment made with radio and acoustic proximity fuzes,electric time and combustion fuze only in development stage.
This informations are from "88 Flak&Pak P.Chamberlain & T.Gander AFV Weapons Special Profile Publications LTD ISBN 0 85383 092 4".
Patrice
Basically there were three mains groups of 88mm rounds.
1)The ammunition for Flak 18/36/37 and KwK 36.
2)The ammunition for Flak 41.
3)The ammunition for the Pak 43 and KWK43 and derivate.
The shell can be divided in two main group
The H.E. Hight explosive (Sprenggranate)
And the A.P. Amour Piercing (Panzergranate).
Each shell was designated as to whether it was nose fuzed H.E. round(Kopfzündung or Kz.)or bse fuzed(Bodenzunder or Bd.z.)the latter being used with A.P. rounds.
For the nose fuzed H.E.time fuzes were used but by the end of the war these fuzes incorpored a percussion element.
A 88mm Fuzes-a Summary
A.Z 23/28 Nose Fuze,could be adjusted for immediate action or 0.1 sec.delay.
A.z 38 Nose fuse.Impact.
Zt.Z S/30 Fg Nose fuze.Centrifugal weight action,variable up to 30 sec
Dopp.Z. Nose Fuze Clockwork.
Bd.Zf.8.8cm.Pzgr. Base fuze avialable in two sizes,a percussion fuze it could be varied to provide a delay to allow the HEAT to explode inside a vehicle.
Bd.Z. 5127 Base Fuze,variable like the Bd.Zf.88mm Pzgr.
Bd.Z.5103&5103/1 Base Fuze variable.
Some experiment made with radio and acoustic proximity fuzes,electric time and combustion fuze only in development stage.
This informations are from "88 Flak&Pak P.Chamberlain & T.Gander AFV Weapons Special Profile Publications LTD ISBN 0 85383 092 4".
Patrice
Shells used :
Sprenggranate : HE
Panzergranate : APHE
Hohlladungsgranate , for the 8,8 cm guns, this was the 8,8 cm Granate 39 Hl (Holladung): HEAT
Panzergranate 40: APHC
Leuchtgeschosse: flares/Illum.
Anschussgeschosse: proof
Brand Schrapnell: Incendiary schrapnell
Off all of those, "Übung" or practice shells and "Blind" or Inert shells were made .
Then there were dummy rounds, to practice loading "Ladeübung Patronen" or "Ex" (Exerzier)
Rounds to practice loading and fuzesetting "Ladeüb. und Zünderstellpatrone"
Rounds to practice fuzesetting alone: "Zünderstellpatrone".
Rounds for teaching purposes : "U"or "Unterrichtpatrone"
There were cases to safely remove shells that had become stuck in the barrel: "Aushilfekartusche"
This was pretty much a blank round.
Cases to measure the powder temperature during storage: "Messkartusche".
Blank rounds: "Manöverkartusche"
The 8,8 cm Flak 41 had it's own type of HE shells, not interchangeable with the other 8,8 cm guns.
Same goes for all the 8,8 cm Pak 43/KwK 43 shells.
The shells fired from Flak 18 were also used by Kw.K 36, the navy used a great deal of those shells as well, but also had it's own designs.
The Dopp. Z S/60 were never used in AA combat, it really would have been a waste of such a complex (expensive) fuze.
The fuzes for AP shells: BdZ. f. 8,8 cm Pzgr. and BdZ 5127 could not be set to a variable time; first of all, the shells were fix on the case, so there was no way to reach the fuze, second: those fuzes had no device to set the delay time, infact you would have to screw the fuze out of the shell, take the initial charge (very dangerous) , before you could get to the fuze...
Bd.Z 5103 and and 5103* (There's no such thing as BdZ 5103/1) were never used on 8,8 cm Shells.
I haven't mentioned any of the experimental shells, because so many different variations were made.
Sub caliber, rocket proppeled, mine shells, extra long shells , arrow shaped, fixed wing stabilized, folded wing stabilzed, "Mutter-Kind" shells, Röchling, Trommsdorf...
The list is very long, most of them are virtually unknown.
Zünder,
http://www.wk2ammo.com
Sprenggranate : HE
Panzergranate : APHE
Hohlladungsgranate , for the 8,8 cm guns, this was the 8,8 cm Granate 39 Hl (Holladung): HEAT
Panzergranate 40: APHC
Leuchtgeschosse: flares/Illum.
Anschussgeschosse: proof
Brand Schrapnell: Incendiary schrapnell
Off all of those, "Übung" or practice shells and "Blind" or Inert shells were made .
Then there were dummy rounds, to practice loading "Ladeübung Patronen" or "Ex" (Exerzier)
Rounds to practice loading and fuzesetting "Ladeüb. und Zünderstellpatrone"
Rounds to practice fuzesetting alone: "Zünderstellpatrone".
Rounds for teaching purposes : "U"or "Unterrichtpatrone"
There were cases to safely remove shells that had become stuck in the barrel: "Aushilfekartusche"
This was pretty much a blank round.
Cases to measure the powder temperature during storage: "Messkartusche".
Blank rounds: "Manöverkartusche"
The 8,8 cm Flak 41 had it's own type of HE shells, not interchangeable with the other 8,8 cm guns.
Same goes for all the 8,8 cm Pak 43/KwK 43 shells.
The shells fired from Flak 18 were also used by Kw.K 36, the navy used a great deal of those shells as well, but also had it's own designs.
The Dopp. Z S/60 were never used in AA combat, it really would have been a waste of such a complex (expensive) fuze.
The fuzes for AP shells: BdZ. f. 8,8 cm Pzgr. and BdZ 5127 could not be set to a variable time; first of all, the shells were fix on the case, so there was no way to reach the fuze, second: those fuzes had no device to set the delay time, infact you would have to screw the fuze out of the shell, take the initial charge (very dangerous) , before you could get to the fuze...
Bd.Z 5103 and and 5103* (There's no such thing as BdZ 5103/1) were never used on 8,8 cm Shells.
I haven't mentioned any of the experimental shells, because so many different variations were made.
Sub caliber, rocket proppeled, mine shells, extra long shells , arrow shaped, fixed wing stabilized, folded wing stabilzed, "Mutter-Kind" shells, Röchling, Trommsdorf...
The list is very long, most of them are virtually unknown.
Zünder,
http://www.wk2ammo.com
Hello.
Zunder you write "there is no such thing as Bdz 5103/1"but sorry same information is in "German Artillery of World War Two"of Ian V.Hoog.
I quote"Bd. Z. 5103/1:Bodenzünder 5103/1.This was similar to to the 5103,butwas much smaller and lacked the tracer element.
According to P.Chamberlain&T.Gander the Bd.Z 5127 was used with the 88mm.Panzergrenate 39/43 KwK(HEAT) for KwK43,Pak43,43/41
Shell weight.10.16 kg.
Charge 137 gr Cyclonite/wax.
Fuze Bd.Z. 5127 Base Fuze Variable as Bd.Zf.8.8cm Pzgr.
From the Ian V.Hoog book; Bd.Z 5127:Bodenzünder 5127.
This fuze used an arming mechanism that comprised two balls retained by a steel collar and a shear pin.
This locked the collar striker and on impact the collar was flung forward,shearing the locking pin and allowing the ball to move out,thereby releasing the striker.This gave an unusually fast reaction time for a base fuse.
Patrice
Zunder you write "there is no such thing as Bdz 5103/1"but sorry same information is in "German Artillery of World War Two"of Ian V.Hoog.
I quote"Bd. Z. 5103/1:Bodenzünder 5103/1.This was similar to to the 5103,butwas much smaller and lacked the tracer element.
According to P.Chamberlain&T.Gander the Bd.Z 5127 was used with the 88mm.Panzergrenate 39/43 KwK(HEAT) for KwK43,Pak43,43/41
Shell weight.10.16 kg.
Charge 137 gr Cyclonite/wax.
Fuze Bd.Z. 5127 Base Fuze Variable as Bd.Zf.8.8cm Pzgr.
From the Ian V.Hoog book; Bd.Z 5127:Bodenzünder 5127.
This fuze used an arming mechanism that comprised two balls retained by a steel collar and a shear pin.
This locked the collar striker and on impact the collar was flung forward,shearing the locking pin and allowing the ball to move out,thereby releasing the striker.This gave an unusually fast reaction time for a base fuse.
Patrice
Patrice: they way i understand it, "variabel" means that you are able to choose between either instantaneous, or a delay action, the same as with for instance AZ23/28.
This is not possible with BdZ 5127, the fuze itself is located inside a basescrew on the inside of the shell, and toped with a primer.
The shell is fixed on the case, and there's no way to get to it, with using special tools to extract the shell from the case.
The same assembly was used for the 8,8 cm BdZ f. Pzgr., you can not alter the fuze setting....
Hogg is hardly a good reference when it comes to ammunition, i doubt there are any EOD members who use it as such.
In all wartime german manuals, a bdZ 5103/1 was never mentioned, neither in Allied Reports.
You won't find it mentioned in EOD manuals, or in Ed Koch's book of german fuzes (who is generally regarded as being the expert when it comes to fuzes).
No one has ever seen one, or documented it, expect Hogg..
He's the only one, who mentions BdZ 5103/1 and 2 types of BdZ f. 8,8 cm Pzgr.
My guess in case of the 5103/1 is, that he's talking about BdZ 5104.
Zünder,
http://www.wk2ammo.com
This is not possible with BdZ 5127, the fuze itself is located inside a basescrew on the inside of the shell, and toped with a primer.
The shell is fixed on the case, and there's no way to get to it, with using special tools to extract the shell from the case.
The same assembly was used for the 8,8 cm BdZ f. Pzgr., you can not alter the fuze setting....
Hogg is hardly a good reference when it comes to ammunition, i doubt there are any EOD members who use it as such.
In all wartime german manuals, a bdZ 5103/1 was never mentioned, neither in Allied Reports.
You won't find it mentioned in EOD manuals, or in Ed Koch's book of german fuzes (who is generally regarded as being the expert when it comes to fuzes).
No one has ever seen one, or documented it, expect Hogg..
He's the only one, who mentions BdZ 5103/1 and 2 types of BdZ f. 8,8 cm Pzgr.
My guess in case of the 5103/1 is, that he's talking about BdZ 5104.
Zünder,
http://www.wk2ammo.com
Re: Flak 88mm Shells?
First of all, I'm really sorry for digging out the corpse of the topic, but I am quite confused with the opposing info I see on the internet about fuzes used in AA 88's applications. I've seen that people say something along the lines:
So my question is - were there ever shells used in AA applications that comprised of 2 types of fuses like some are trying to say?
However, judging from everything @Patrice and @Zünder posted it seems that there's a misconception here. It looks like people see A.Z 23/28 Nose Fuze and completely skip the fact that time-delay is only 0.1s (exploding after penetrating armor I guess?) and it makes no sense in AA application.Standard German anti-aircraft shells used a time delay fuse, usually with a grazing function for the rare direct hit on an enemy aircraft.
So my question is - were there ever shells used in AA applications that comprised of 2 types of fuses like some are trying to say?
Re: Flak 88mm Shells?
Standard German Flak fuze was the Zt.Z. S/30 mechanical time fuze with absolutely no impact action.
But yes, there were double action fuzes for the heavy Flak - introduced in late 1944 only and just tested in limited numbers, big scale combat trials were to be conducted in April 1945.
There was a number of double action fuzes developed for the Flak, but two were chosen for service in early 1945 - E.Dopp.Z. S/30 Fg by Junghans and Zt.Z. S/30 CC by Skoda, both were modifications of standard Zt.Z. S/30 time fuzes with additional impact component added in the nose. Existing time fuzes could also be modified to the double action role.
A comparison of standard 8,8 cm Flak shells with Zt.Z. S/30 time fuzes and both types of double action fuzes is illustrated below.
Note, that Dopp.Z. S/60 double action fuzes were also used in the ammo for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 36 gun of the Tiger tank (ammunition was the same as the 8,8 cm Flak L/56, save for different igniters) - but these fuzes were not appropriate for the Flak.
But yes, there were double action fuzes for the heavy Flak - introduced in late 1944 only and just tested in limited numbers, big scale combat trials were to be conducted in April 1945.
There was a number of double action fuzes developed for the Flak, but two were chosen for service in early 1945 - E.Dopp.Z. S/30 Fg by Junghans and Zt.Z. S/30 CC by Skoda, both were modifications of standard Zt.Z. S/30 time fuzes with additional impact component added in the nose. Existing time fuzes could also be modified to the double action role.
A comparison of standard 8,8 cm Flak shells with Zt.Z. S/30 time fuzes and both types of double action fuzes is illustrated below.
Note, that Dopp.Z. S/60 double action fuzes were also used in the ammo for the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 36 gun of the Tiger tank (ammunition was the same as the 8,8 cm Flak L/56, save for different igniters) - but these fuzes were not appropriate for the Flak.