Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

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TUS
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by TUS » 25 Oct 2015 02:34

Hello Rolf

Can you let me in on the location of these 3 Friessentonnen?? So far we have around 20 remaining across the danish/German border, but would like to know more about any remainings in Germany?

Brgds Tønnes

jopaerya
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by jopaerya » 25 Oct 2015 10:00

Hello All

Are there any original documents with the name "Friessentonne" ??

Regards Jos

nordfriese
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by nordfriese » 25 Oct 2015 12:07

Hi!

@Jos

In the last IBA-book is an article about the Friesenwall. There I found a
note, that this name was used in a "Tätigkeitsbericht des Wehrkreises X".

Sorry, but I don't have this "Tätigkeitsbericht", but it seems that it was
used in an official document.



@Tønnes

Most of the Friesentonnen in North Frisia were build on top of the dykes.
A lot in the first dyke, which is directly at the shore and some of them
in the second dyke.
A few of the ones in the first dyke were destroyed by order of British
troops after the war. Some were destoyed by order of local dyke-officials,
because of the danger that during a stormflood the water could bathe the
"Tonnen" and the dyke could burst. (Happened at Christianskoog near Meldorf,
where responsible persons "forgot" three of them and during the very heavy
stormflood in 1962 the dyke burst at this place, because exactly that
happened.) In the 60th/70th the dykes directly at the shore were renewed
at the whole shore, so the last Friesentonnen in the first dyke were
destroyed.

Something else is the second dyke. Because it is a dyke "just in case", the
officials just destoyed just a few of the Friesentonnen. Lots of them are
still there.

On the second dyke of the Sönke-Nissen-Koog (for our dutch friends: A "Koog"
is called "Polder" in the Netherlands) 28 of them are still left, most at
passages over/through the dyke. (You are welcome for a sightseeing tour. ;-) )

Between the Hindenburgdamm to the island of Sylt and the border crossing at
Böglum, I know the two Tobruk directly north of the Hindenburgdamm and a
former "gun-bunker"-position around one kilometer north of the Damm.
In/west of Rosenkranz are still eleven Friesentonnen, one in Aventoft and four
west of the border crossing at Böglum (all on the German side, I haven't searched
on the Danish side)

It seems, that you know more positions than me. Could you please help?

Best wishes
Rolf

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ErwinZ
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by ErwinZ » 27 Oct 2015 23:24

Interesting story.

Are there any build / left at the Kanal- and Heinitzpolders? (Dollard)

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der bunkermann
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by der bunkermann » 28 Oct 2015 18:21

Now i'm a bit confused.. friesentonne look alot like koch rohre, but are not the same thing?

Gr, Tim

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TH
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by TH » 28 Oct 2015 20:54

According to an order from February 1945, experiments with Kochbunkers were conducted in the area of 'Ausbau der Deutschen Bucht'. The goal was to improve cover, by lowering them more into the ground. A construction list from early 1945 gives 4633 Ringstände of unspecified type for Nordfriesland. The list explicitly mentions 737 Kochstände in the Westfalenstellung.

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TUS
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by TUS » 29 Oct 2015 23:08

Hi Rolf

Sorry for the late reply. Do you have some maps or positions covering the 28 remaining Friesentonnen around Sönke-Nissen-Koog?
I know about the two Bauform 58c at Hindenburger Damm, but what is this Schartenstand you are referring to? Never heard about this one.
And very interesting that the breakthrough in 1962 was caused by the Friesentonnen, I didn’t know about this fact.

Around the Danish/German border we have, until now, found the following Friesentonde/Koch-Stände

Rozenkranz, 14 pce, German side

Rudbøl, 1 pce, German side

Magisterkog, 1 pce, German side

Møllehus, 1 pce, Danish side

Sæd, 10 pce, Both German and Danish side

In addition to this there are 2 pce of regular Bauform 58c around Padborg/Kruså
Let me know if you want specific positions.

Brgds Tønnes

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TUS
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by TUS » 29 Oct 2015 23:35

Some positions as well.

Brgds Tønnes
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nordfriese
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by nordfriese » 30 Oct 2015 02:48

Hi!

@ErwinZ
ErwinZ wrote:Are there any build / left at the Kanal- and Heinitzpolders?
Sorry, Erwin! Not "my area". :cry:


@Tønnes
Thanks a lot for the information! :thumbsup:

Here's a map of the ones in the Sönke-Nissen-Koog-area, which still exsist.
Sönke-Nissen-Koog.jpg
There are also five in Reussen-Koog in a dyke-corner.
They are not on top of the dyke! Here are three of them.
reussen-koog.JPG
Here's an old map of the Hindenburgdamm-area. On this map the Friedrich-Wilhelm-Lübke-Koog
doesn't exsisted yet! The Schartenstand was in the north to protect the Hindenburgdamm.
MTB 1117 - Horsbüll.jpg
The only picture of the former Schartenstand I have, is from the 70th. Sorry, it's a really bad
one. :oops: The Schartenstand was blown up after the war and for many years there was his ruin.
In the 80th or 90th, the ruin was completly destroyed. There is nothing left.
blown up schartenstand westerdeich.jpg
BTW
I forgot one Friesentonne in the area of the border.
At the "Grenzstrasse", northwest of Süderlügum, there is one Friesentonne between the railway crossing
and the T-junction direction Aventoft. It's on the right hand side of the street in the grass...
Grenzstrasse.jpg
Best wishes
Rolf
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ErwinZ
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by ErwinZ » 30 Oct 2015 10:09

nordfriese wrote:They are not on top of the dyke!
But the dyke was raised in the 60s I pressume?
nordfriese wrote:The only picture of the former Schartenstand I have, is from the 70th.
Do you have a drawing or at least a general idea how it looked like?
Still hoping to find this one http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p1926597 in the Deutsche Bucht.

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TUS
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by TUS » 30 Oct 2015 12:33

Hi Rolf

Thanks for the maps and info.. Very useful. Do you have any idea if the Schartenstand was a Regelbau or improvised?

Brgds Tønnes

nordfriese
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by nordfriese » 30 Oct 2015 12:57

Hi Erwin!
ErwinZ wrote:But the dyke was raised in the 60s I pressume?
No, they are at the second dyke. The second dyke wasn't renewed. At the
dyke-profile you can see, how old a dyke is, because there were several
changes during the centuries in height and width.
Please see here as an example:
http://www.umweltatlas-hamburg.de/1kapi ... eiprof.gif

The dyke-profile is all the same along the whole second dyke of the Sönke-
Nissen-Koog and Reussen-Koog, so there were no building activities since
the end of the war. This is the reason there are "so much" Friesentonnen
left. In the moment, I don't have a clue, why they build five Friesen-
tonnen at the bottom of the dyke...
ErwinZ wrote:Do you have a drawing or at least a general idea how it looked like?
Sorry, no drawings are left in local archives. At every position of a
Schartenstand in Nordfriesland, locals told me about a "room" with a
(more or less) large hole in viewing direction to the shore. That's all. :(

I know four former Schartenstand-positions in Nordfriesland and I
don't even know, if they were the same Bauform, because there
are no pictures of the intact bunkers or drawings left. There are just
a few pictures of the ruins or of the demolition of the Schartenstände
with piles of concrete.
The "best" picture I have is the destoyed one at Ehstensiel/Wilhelminen-
Koog, but is it the same Bauform as the one at the Hindenburgdamm-area?
I don't know... :cry:
Bunker Wilhelminenkoog.jpg
Best wishes
Rolf
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nordfriese
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by nordfriese » 30 Oct 2015 13:06

Hi Tønnes!

I haven't seen your reply. Please read the post above.

Best wishes
Rolf

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TUS
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by TUS » 01 Nov 2015 20:30

Thanks for the info Rolf

Brgds Tønnes

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ErwinZ
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Re: Question - What´s this "concrete" ?

Post by ErwinZ » 02 Nov 2015 09:58

nordfriese wrote:
ErwinZ wrote:But the dyke was raised in the 60s I pressume?
No, they are at the second dyke. The second dyke wasn't renewed.
Ah yes. Same situation as here in Groningen. That makes the position of the Tonnen a bit illogical.
One part of the dyke here was used, at some point, for smoke layering. On the length of the dyke several smoke pots were deployed and at the end and beginning there was a Tobruk if my memory is correct. That could be a clue for your Tonnen.

Too bad there is no documentation on the Schartenstanden. Last photo looks different from what I'm looking for. This looks more like a concrete roof.

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