Flak 18 first time used as AT gun?

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McBeast
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Flak 18 first time used as AT gun?

#1

Post by McBeast » 29 Jun 2005, 15:47

I read somwhere that the firste time that the AAgun Flak 18 with the dreaded 88mm KwK gun was used was a time at Sollum near Halfaya in North Africa 1941 and other places i read that i was widely used in the Unternehmen Fall Gelb 1940? What is correct?

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Alp Guard
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Re: Flak 18 first time used as AT gun?

#2

Post by Alp Guard » 29 Jun 2005, 16:00

McBeast wrote:I read somwhere that the firste time that the AAgun Flak 18 with the dreaded 88mm KwK gun was used was a time at Sollum near Halfaya in North Africa 1941 and other places i read that i was widely used in the Unternehmen Fall Gelb 1940? What is correct?
On my 3 hours WWII DVD they mention, that it was in North Africa


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David W
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#3

Post by David W » 29 Jun 2005, 16:34

Some reports claim they were first used in 1940 near Arras. (in Belgium I think).

I doubt this claim, as I can only put 10.5cm le/FH18 near the spot at the time.

However, I am always willing to be proved wrong.

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#4

Post by jopaerya » 29 Jun 2005, 18:14

Hi All

David is right , it was the 7 Panzerdivision of Rommel who
used the 8,8 cm Flak as antitankgun in Mai 1940 at Arras.
Rommel used them to block a attack of the Englisch tanks.

Regards Jos

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Leo Niehorster
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#5

Post by Leo Niehorster » 29 Jun 2005, 20:25

During the Civil War in Spain.

Steady
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#6

Post by Steady » 29 Jun 2005, 23:23

Leo is right.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... 73472/pg_2
The 88-mm FLAK Non-Standard Missions. As the legion went into action, its aircraft were committed to a wide variety of combat and support roles. The FLAK batteries initially were deployed in their originally intended roles to protect the airfields and logistics bases.

But soon, the nature of combat in Spain, with its wildly fluctuating front lines and the commitment of Russian armor, forced the Germans to employ the 88-mm guns in a direct fire mode against ground targets. In addition, the scarcity of Nationalist Spanish artillery and the general low proficiency of its crews soon placed new demands on the German FLAK gun as a direct support (DS) FA weapon. [19] Indeed, the 88-mm FLAK performed far more missions as an anti-tank and direct-fire Field Artillery gun than as an anti-aircraft gun. In a particularly intense period, German 88-mm guns were involved in 377 engagements. Of these, only 31 were against aircraft. [20]

The 88-mm FLAK was a powerful, flat trajectory weapon. The same characteristics that made it suitable for the anti-aircraft role served it well in the anti-tank role. [21]

However, it did not share the low profile and transportability of a properly designed anti-tank gun. [22] The 88-mm FLAK was mounted on a higher carriage that did not lend itself well to concealment and quick displacement. Also, it was served by a crew of eight--twice the number of the smaller antitank guns. All this created quite a large visual signature, making concealment more difficult.

The Lufwaffe cannon crews had not been trained for their new roles, so they had to learn them as they fought. They had to develop a practical set of tactics, techniques and procedures (TTP) and come up with workable solutions for tactically employing their weapon as the situation demanded.

In many cases, the firepower and accuracy of the 88-mm FLAK made significant and sometimes decisive contributions to the ground battle. For example, in the fighting around Malaga in early 1937, a battery of 88-mm guns was DS to an infantry brigade. Despite a spell of bad weather that grounded the main bomber force of the legion, the assault succeeded, largely because of the concentrated and accurate fire of the supporting artillery. [23]

Another instance of the effectiveness of the 88-mm FLAK in the DS role occurred in the attack against the town of Ridabasella. Again, the firepower of the German 88 was essential to the Nationalists' success. [24]

The use of the 88-mm FLAK in close proximity to the enemy made it vulnerable to ground attack. However, the gun and its crews proved to be formidable opponents, even in a defensive role. Inevitably, they suffered some casualties from infantry fire. [25] Casualties among the legion's 88-mm FLAK batteries in the Spanish Civil War were second only to those among the bomber pilots. [26]

The FLAK also performed well in its intended role as anti-aircraft artillery. Of the 386 enemy aircraft shot down by the legion, 59 were downed by antiaircraft fire. The FLAK downed most of them. [27]

Summing up the 88-mm FLAK's combat performance in Spain, General Wolfram von Ritchhofen wrote, "The FLAK, to the horror of experts in Berlin, has consistently been used as the backbone of the ground artillery." [28] Referring to its amazing versatility, he added, "We pulled the joke of sending a battery north of Guernica as coastal defense. If that battery would manage to sink a Red ship, the comedy of errors would really receive its crowning glory." [29]

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David W
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#7

Post by David W » 30 Jun 2005, 00:49

Leo is right.
Leo is always right.


I certainly never knew that one.

Thanks Steady, for posting that article.

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#8

Post by jopaerya » 30 Jun 2005, 09:11

Hi All

Thanks for the info and for me its no problem
Leo is Right , I don't want to be a bad lozer but
are there report about the antitankrole when and
were of the 8,8 cm Flak in Spain .
And special against what kind of tanks?

Regards Jos

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David Lehmann
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#9

Post by David Lehmann » 30 Jun 2005, 09:22

Hello,

Concerning the western campaign of 1940 the 8.8cm FlaK was used before Arras on May 21. On May 12 around Hannut for example etc.
Most of the B1bis tanks destroyed by enemy fire were hit by 8.8cm FlaK or 10.5cm leFH shells.

Regards,

David

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#10

Post by jopaerya » 30 Jun 2005, 11:56

Hello David

Thanks for the info , you can see the normal German antitank
weapons and tanks had it difficult with the B1bis and Matildas
so they used the 8,8 cm to hit them and put them out of order.

Regards Jos

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#11

Post by Lkefct » 30 Jun 2005, 17:29

German combined arms doctrine actually dates back to early WW1, so the idea that you use whatever weapons are on hand is pretty second nature to the germans. The added mobility that a 8.8 cm gun has compared to the other weapons of similar caliber certainly helps things. German preference for mobility makes it possible for the field commanders to have those guns close at hand for this sort of thing to occur.

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#12

Post by Andreas » 04 Jul 2005, 22:46

To extend on what David wrote, the Heer actually fielded units designated as AT (Panzerjaeger) equipped with the 88 from the start of Fall Gelb.

88s were also used for bunker-busting on the Maginot line.

All the best

Andreas

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#13

Post by Shuffler » 05 Jul 2005, 13:39

Andreas wrote:To extend on what David wrote, the Heer actually fielded units designated as AT (Panzerjaeger) equipped with the 88 from the start of Fall Gelb.

88s were also used for bunker-busting on the Maginot line.
I hadn't realised this weapon was "officially" used in the AT role this early.

The next question that comes to my mind is whether the Germans attempted to improve on the AT capabilities of this gun, especially by changing the mounting to lower its profile, or perhaps reducing the number of crew members?

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#14

Post by M.Rausch » 05 Jul 2005, 13:56

The 8.8 cm Flak was used to a really big extent as anti-armor weapon in the Battle of France.

Here is a posting of mine on another board:
Before the BoF two Flakkorps were founded, fielding about 400 8.8 cm Flak. These two Flakkorps were directly attached to the 14 "Schnelle" divisions of the tank combat groups of von Kleist and Guderian.

After the BoF had ended they were credited with the following combat results:


I. Flakkorps

372 plane kills in the air.
252 planes killed on ground or captured.
47 destroyed tanks.
30 pill-boxes.
1 sunk warship with 12 warships and 8 transporters being damaged.


II. Flakkorps

214 plane kills in the air.
284 destroyed tanks.
17 destroyed fortresses.
7 sunk transporters with numerous other ships damaged.


Additionally before the BoF Rheinmetall fited protection shields to 50 8.8 cm Flak 18, which were planned to be used and were used in first line against fortifications.
The 8.8 cm Flak was used also in Poland against tanks, but it was not before the BoF, that also organizational changes were made to use it better as direct support weapon.

The gun was always used in a dual-purpose role. Since it was never intended to reduce its effectiveness as anti-aircraft gun, any changes to the mounting or reduction of the crew had no sense.

The AT-capabilities were of course increased by replacing the 8.8 cm Pzgr. by the 8.8 cm Pzgr. 39 in 1942 or the possible use of the 8.8 cm Gr. 39 Hl (HEAT round).

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#15

Post by Andreas » 05 Jul 2005, 14:13

Shuffler wrote:The next question that comes to my mind is whether the Germans attempted to improve on the AT capabilities of this gun, especially by changing the mounting to lower its profile, or perhaps reducing the number of crew members?
That would be the PAK43, I guess. Much lower profile, no longer capable of use as an AA weapon, AFAICT.

All the best

Andreas

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