Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

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Natter
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Spinnebatterien

Post by Natter » 18 May 2011 12:35

Content of a document titled "Notes from a discussion with reference to NYK - Coastal defence, at OKM/T Wa on 1944-03-21", no reference besides this (red text = my comments):

1. Planning
OKM/TW a has made an initial plan for 200 NYK torpedoes which are in process of construction. By employing the excgange procedure, 35 batteries can be erected at the same time (each battery with 3 torpedoes, hence 105 torpedoes in all). A final plan, "Planning for NYK Coastal Defence", will be delivered to the representatives of Skl Qu A (Seekriegsleitung Quartiermeister amt) and the West Group and also a "Diagram of the NYK firing positions".


2 OKM/TW a will supply the 200 NYK torpedoes and the corresponding fittings, such as command transmitters, firing switches, firing devices etc.

The representative of Skl will order 120 torpedo-carriages from Maureb (Naval Fitting-out and Repair Works) Swinemünde. Only after the amount of space required for the battery installations and also the local position at the bases have been determined, can the transport requirements be decided. TW a estimates the latter to be:

4 transport carriages (2 of which are reckoned as reserve), for exchanging the torpedoes every two months.
4 transport carriages (2 of which are reserves), with a power-plant for topping up the torpedo batteries and
compressed air-pumps in case compressed air-bottles are to be re-charged on the spot in connection with batteries,
every six days
2 catterpillar tractors with a crane (one as reserve) for transporting the torpedoes from the transport carriage to
the splinter-proof stand
2 transport carriages with a tractor (one as reserve) for transporting the caterpillar tractor from one battery to
another


3. Military questions
The representative of the West Group, after consultation with OKM/TW a (Oberkommando der Kriegsmarine/Torpedowaffen amt), undertakes to give Skl Qu A answer to the following questions:

(a) What space - or spaces for incorporation are planned for the 200 NYK torpedoes which are being constructed, 105
of which can be used with 35 batteries, in order that 95 shall remain over as a reserve for exchanging?

(b) What amount of space can be counted on in the individual incorporation spaces?

(c) How many NYK batteries (1 battery = 3 torpedoes) will be required beyond Cipher/A, based on the present
judgement of the possibilites of use? For what date and for what incorporation spaces?


4. Testing: The carriage is to be tested in seaway and appropriate firing tests by Gotenhafen or by Hela. The carriage which is now in Neubrandenburg is to be transported to Gotenhafen.


5. Training: The following must be trained:

(a) Instructor personell of T.S.
(b) 45 men for steering; Seamen petty officers
45 men for maintenance (torp.mech. personell)
20 men, Torp.mech. personell for the preparation carriages (5 men for each carriage)

OKM/TW a undertakes the preparation for training. The training for (b) is to be carried out in 2-3 courses, with the SAM-group, in TVA, Gotenhafen, in the period 1.4 to 15.5.44.
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 18 May 2011 13:37

Content of a document called "Intermediate report no. 2 on operation "SPINNE" giving the status on 4.7.1944" (dated 8.7.1944). Red text = my comments:

A: Torpedoes

1. 66 torpedoes have been delivered. Of these, 15 have reached the Ostend area, 9 the Atlantic coast, and 12 Toulon. 30 are on the way (24 to Toloun, 6 to Bordeaux).

2. The present rate of delivery by DWK is 2 torpedoes a day.

3. In the tests for internal pressure at 1,5atm (same as for G7a and standard G7e) and also after the transport to the place for operations, the glass discs for the after-part door were cracked; this was remedied by reducing the pressure to 0,75atm and by exchanging the glass discs for better ones (prepared according to the new cooling process) and by placing a rubber packing underneath.

4. TVA experiences in the SPINNE tests:
With a water deptht of 0,5m above the torpedo, the starts are still satisfactory. When the torpedo breaks surface, after the "up" command, it makes sudden eneven, unaccountable changes of course (see Fl b).


B. Steering and firing-off

1. The TVA tests showed that the 24 Volt accumulator, as given by SAM, can only satisfy the requirements when no loss of voltage occurs. With a drop in voltage, the performance of the accumulators is no longer sufficient to transmit satisfactory commands. Consequently the installations with this accumulator is not sufficient in operations. Owing to transport conditions, the measures to be taken are extremely difficult. Measures have been introduced.

3. Positions with regard to construction and dates of termination

(a) Admiral, Channel Coast

(aa) The mole firing-posts at Zeebrügge, Ostend, Dunkirk, Calais and Boulogne were nearly ready when the invasion began.
The following will probably be ready for use:
Zeebrügge on 5.7.44
Ostend on 1.7.44
Dunkirk on 1.7.44
Calais on 30.7.44
Boulogne on 15.7.44

(bb) The continuation of the construction and the completion of the firing-points in Fecamp, Le Havre, Port-en-Bessin and Cherbourg had to be discontinued when the invasion began. It is intended that the 12 SPIONNE-torpedoes which thus become available shall be placed at the disposal of the Admiral South Coast of France for a further 4 Spinne carriage - firing-points.

(b) Admiral, Atlantic Coast

According to the latest reports of the Naval Construction Offices concerned, the state of development is as follows:

Douarnenez: The mounting of the starting device has begun.
Audierne, Beg-Meil, Larmor Plage: Anchorings with drag-drops are laid out. Splinter-proof stands are being constructed.
Turballe: Nearly completed.
St. Nazaire: Mounting of the starting device has begun.
La Pallice: The installation will be ready on 1.7.44. The cabling is still lacking.
Royen Mole: The installation itself which was completed, the winch, crane etc., were destroyed by enemy action. Reconstruction is in course.

(c) Admiral, South Coast of France

Work in the principal sites (Marseilles, Bandol, Hyeres), which had made good progress previously, came to considerable stand-still after 6.6.1944 - with the exeption of Marseilles - since the Todt organisation doing the fitting-up of the position here, had been removed to the rear by order of the Supreme Command.

When the TEK investigation has been carried out, Marseilles will be quite ready for use, and Bandol and Hyeres will be ready in about 10-14 days.

(d) Material Equipment

Admiral, Channel Coast

The mole-firing points at Zeebrügge, Ostend, Dunkirk, Calais and Bolougne are fully equipped with discharge stands, underground cables and other apparatus. There are 15 spinne torpedos in the area.

(e) Admiral, Atlantic Coast

Torpedo Command in Lorient is equppied with 12 torpedo-carriages and 6 spinne-torpedoes with fittings for the installation at Douarnenez (M), Audierne, Benodet, Beg-Meil and Larmor-Plage (W).

Torpedo Command in St. Nazaire has 3 torpedo-carriages for Turballe and St. Nazaire; Torpedo Command in La Pallice has 3 spinne-torpedoes and fittings.

For further equipment, see D3, last paragraph.

(f) Admiral, South Coast of France

Torpedo Command in Toulon, as the Command concerned with the whole of the Southern Area, has so far received:
1. 48 departure carriages with all the accessories.
2. 12 spinne-torpedoes.


F. Tests

(a) As TZ 2 (magnetic Pistol) which had been planned, is not serviceable for the time being because of too high sensitity to disturbance at the "up" command, tests are being carried out with the MZ-part switched off when this command is given. Equipment for operations is therefore Pi 1, if possible already inserted in the warhead.

(b) TVA reported that, in individual torpedoes, every command was not always carried out and that very often, after the "up" command, the torpedoes make incalculable, jumpy changes of course. The pronouncements by SAM are in opposition to this. Since the deployment of the apparatus was called in question because of this want of clearness, the next 10 apparatus had to be placed at SAM's disposal for firing tests at TVA. This caused an interruption of the production for the front of about 14 days.


Note: The map in my previous post above was attached to this memo.
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 18 May 2011 13:48

I forgot to post a note from a 2-day conference with regards to introducing the "Spinne" for coastal defence. The intentions were to introduce the "spinne" to the officers and inform of current state of development, as well as establishing measures for organisation, responsibilites etc. I think what I have posted above covers most of it though.

I also have a few reports from test-firing of the T10 torpedos from "Seehund" and "Molch" midget submarines (with surprisingly positive results), but I guess we're already way outside the topics of "Torpedo bunkers in Norway", so that might be something for another thread... :milwink:

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by jopaerya » 18 May 2011 15:35

Thanks Natter

For this new information on this very interesting subject .

Regards Jos

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 18 May 2011 16:45

You're welcome :)

As the danish and german batteries seem to have been established late in 1944, I wonder if the material used was evacuated from the french batteries (otherwise, they would have had to produce a lot of extra torpedoes, carriages etc., which probably wouldn't be feasible at that point)?

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by jopaerya » 18 May 2011 17:39

Hello Natter

I think you are right , I know for sure that the Spinne torpedo batterie was placed in Vlissingen ( Flushing )
and I found only one note in the information in all the Kriegsmarine information I have from a Spinne
torpedo batterie on 05-08-1944 from Lorient that the place was not realy good .

Logical that the Spinne torpedo batteries were (re)used in Denmark and Germany , any idea if there were any
Spinne batteries planned in Norway ??

Regards Jos
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 18 May 2011 21:44

jopaerya wrote:Logical that the Spinne torpedo batteries were (re)used in Denmark and Germany , any idea if there were any Spinne batteries planned in Norway ??
No other than the rumours mentioned already of some "provisional" torpedobatteries located at Vardeneset (Stavanger) and Tueneset (Ålesund).

From what I can gather of the available information, the "W" batteries would require a rather shallow beach with smooth bottom to position the launch-cradle (as I understand it, the cradle is being winched into the sea by means of an anchorpoint placed a distance ashore from the beach, until the torpedo is submerged under at least 0,5m of water). I can't see that being possible at these norwegian locations. at Tueneset there allegedly were a wooden ramp though, which I guess could have been a "Mole" arrangement.

If there were in fact spinnebatteries in Norway, I don't quite get the logistics: Having only two batteries so far away from eachother. Also, as the torpedoes were to be exchanged quite often for maintenance, I think there should be a torpedo-depot in the vicinity. I don't know if this was the case for either locations, although I suspect there might have been a depot in Stavanger (at Ulsnes or maybe an aerial torpedo-depot at Sola See?). Of course they might have used the same method for transport by ship as they did when exchanging torpedoes from the ordinary torpedobatteries (of which three were located at the north-west coast not that far from Ålesund).
jopaerya wrote:I think you are right , I know for sure that the Spinne torpedo batterie was placed in Vlissingen ( Flushing ) and I found only one note in the information in all the Kriegsmarine information I have from a Spinne
torpedo batterie on 05-08-1944 from Lorient that the place was not realy good.
I wonder if the reason for this was due to the geographical location, logistics or enemy actions (I'm not sure how to interprete the text in the document you posted)?
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by jopaerya » 19 May 2011 15:52

Hello Natter

My personel intrepetation of the document = I think the place ( Larmor Plage ) were the planned Spinne torpedo should
be placed was not ideal or impossible . The Torpedo Kommando Lorient send this message to the Seeko Bretagne .

Regards Jos

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 19 May 2011 17:08

jopaerya wrote:My personel intrepetation of the document = I think the place ( Larmor Plage ) were the planned Spinne torpedo should be placed was not ideal or impossible . The Torpedo Kommando Lorient send this message to the Seeko Bretagne.
Thank you, probably an issue related to geographical/ physical conditions at site then...
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 19 May 2011 17:09

I have a reference to technical details of the G7es/T10 NYK ("SPINNE") torpedo: "D.U.W. translation Nos. 4420 and 4421".
I assume this is allied translations of german documents ("D.U.W." might be the Underwater Weapons Department..?).

Does anyone have an idea of where to search for these documents (so far I haven't found anything in the UK National Archives by using the reference mentioned, SPINNE, NYK, T10 or similar keywords)?

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 19 May 2011 17:33

As a curiosity, I found this while browsing through the National Archives looking for the T10 details - from "Weekly Résumé (No. 284) of the Naval, Military and air situation from 0700 1st February to 0700 8th February, 1945":
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by pierrot » 19 May 2011 19:44

Hello,

I discover quite lately this interesting post about the Spinne Torpedo's.
Here my contribution to this subject:
I can confirm the Spinne torpedo launcher in Ostend has been built as it is mentionned in the destruction report of the port facilities made by the HafenKommandant during the retreat in September 1944. See the doc hereunder.
44 09 19 doc 01b Vernichtung des Hafens.jpg
I am also proud to let you know that the floating torpedo battery in Brest that Jos was talking about still exist today....
but under the water. See the link hereunder about this wreck.

http://www.plongepave.com/rubrique,chal ... 64790.html

Greetings

Pierrot

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by jopaerya » 19 May 2011 20:41

Hello Pierrot

What a coincidence , yesterday I was reading about this floating torpedo battery 8-)
as you can read it was sunk by the Germans , nice to see they were Dutch torpedo tubes 8O

Regards Jos

p.s. thanks for the Spinne information from Oostende
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by stril » 04 Jun 2011 18:19

Hello
I have added some info about early torpedobatteries in Trondheim-Norway in the tread about Z6
regards
stril
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&start=15

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by jopaerya » 05 Jun 2011 18:30

Hello Paul

Great infromation , not only on the torpedobatterie but also the guns were reused . 8O

Regards Jos

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