Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

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Natter
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 10 Jun 2011 18:50

The following is taken from a translation by the british "Torpedo Experimental Establishment" of the german document "Entwicklungsgeschichte des über einen draht fehrngesteuerten torpedos gerät 43 (SPINNE), TVA Sektion Karlau, september 1945" (there is a note saying the report was written from memory, as no original written material is available - I assume this has been added by the individual german engineer at TVA who created the document).

There's a lot of text concerning specific technical issues, so I have only included an extract of what I think is most interesting in terms of this thread and the use of T10 in the coastal defence (feel free to ask if interested in the omitted details - due to the format and condition of the report, I'm not gonna bother scanning this though). Red text = My comments/notes.

The development of TX:
Torpedo course control during the run has appeared desireable for a very long time and suggestions for obtaining this control have ranged from the towing of a rowing boat by the torpedo, so that a man could be carried who would adjust the course by means of ropes, to the most advanced forms of wire-less control.

The control channel utilized for the TX, consisting of wire which is unrolled from a container in the torpedo, was first suggested by the firm of Siemens & Halsko towards the end of the 1914-18 war.

In 1942, Siemens & Halsko were commisioned by the admiralty to construct roll-controlled gear, but the first models (oil hydraulic), were not satisfactory. This lead to trials with electric gear (electric Pavian), which included both roll and course control, thus making the TX possible. At the same time, consideration was given to location of the torpedo during its run, and it was decided to make it surface during the day time and provide it with a lamp for use at night. A number of preliminary trials were also carried out from E-boats to test different types of wire and transmission gear. It had been hoped to use normal telephone gear for command transmissions and receptions, but trias showed that:
(a) transmissions could not be carried out with sufficient speed so that the turning circle would be excessively large, and
(b) the receiver gear was so much affected by shock that commands could not be carried out sucessfully.

The problem, however, was solved by the use of relay circuits for both transmitter and receiver, which made it possible to transmit commands succesfully at speeds up to five pr. second (this corresponds to the command-frequency used in norwegian post-war wire guidance modified G7a's).

I have omitted the most of the following description, but here's a short summary:
  • Transmitted pulses draw about 5mA from the 120V transmitter power-supply.
    The receiver draw about 7A from the 30V main torpedo battery.
    4 type of commands could be given: Depth, lamp on/off, port and starboard steering.
    The wire-type chosen was a 0,3mm steel wire with "Protodur" insulation.
    The wire was not spun in a reel, but as a ball kept loose in a canister.
    The wire-canister in the torpedo had a capacity of 5000m.


There was some problems concerned with shots over 4000m distance, decided to be caused by the high restiance in the wire, as well as a high capacity between the wire and the sea-water (electrical ground) screwing up the shape of the transmitted pulses. Measures was taken to improve the shape of the pulses, and they succeeded in such way that firings could be made up to 10000m distance (using a 5000m wire at the transmitter end in addition to the wire in the torpedo itself).

The following variants of the T10 was developed:

Preliminary model (no designation given in the report): Used a rotary transformer attached to the gyroscope for course control.

Gerät 43a: Had both roll- and course control. The rotary transformer was replaced by a bridge-control and bridge providing electrical stabilization and rudder-control. Each course-control command produced a 2 degree change in course (post-war wire-guidance modificated norwegian G7a could be controlled by steps of 1 degree). This variant proved to be very reliable but was not put into production due to the lack of manufacturing facilities.

Gerät 43d: The electrical stabilization and rudder control was replaced by a "specht" (a device consisting of 3 solenoids). The specht would disconnect the gyroscope on first course-command received, after that the rudder could only be kept in full port, full starboard or center posistion. Disadvantage: No gyroscope control of the course, ie the torpedo had to be brought to the surface for visual control. Advantage: Easy stering and the torpedo could be set to circle. This was the variant put in production for the shore-defence of France, Denmark and Germany (this may indicate no "Spinnebattery" in Norway, but on the other hand: Batteries have been confirmed in Holland).

Gerät 43c: This variant was a result of the disadvantages of the ruddercontroll from 43d, and was similar to 43a but without roll-control. Only a few trial-models were built, but as with 43a they proved very successful.

Gerät 43cp: This was a variant utilizing a new gyroscope developed by TVA Eckernförde at the same time as 43c and 43d was being tested. The gyroscope could be continuously rotated in addition to having a base that could be adjusted. The base could be adjusted in steps of 2 degrees by a gyro-setting gear, so a similar function as the 43a could be obtained with pneumatic control. Electrical stabilization was not included.

As the gerät 43d, 43c and 43cp had no roll-control, a further variant was developed, comprising a bayonet-shaped vane projected from the torpedo on the roll-axis after launch. This proved quite successful, but it was never fitted to production models.

All torpedovariants were tested by means of firing from traditional tubes, as well as rafts and shore-based batteries. Shots were also made from E-boats, where both torpedo and boat each had a wire-spool, so that the boat was free to manoever after launch (ie the same practise as with modern wire-guided torpedoes as well). Trials were still going on at the end of the war.
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 10 Jun 2011 18:51

And here is the Gerät 43cp diagram:
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 11 Jun 2011 18:58

I found some additional notes on the T10 as I was looking through a translation of the following document:
"Homing torpeedoes - tactical requirements: Lecture on self-homing and remote-controlled torpedoes, with tables of the requirements, potentialities and the state of development of various types" (Dr.Ing.Habil. von Aschoff, TVA Gotenhafen 6.12.1943). Apparently this was lecture no 3 in a series of 20 given for the high command of the german navy (does anyone have knowledge about the rest of these..?).

As usual, red text = my comments.

There's quite a long text, but as far as I can tell, this is mainly covering general aspects of the topic, and in some extend mentiones the "Zaunkönig" and "Möve" torpedoes.
The tables covers the status for the following torpedoes: "Zaunkönig 2", "Möve", "Pfau Luft", "Taube", "Boje Marine", "Boje Luft", "Ibis", "Märchen", "Ackerman", "NY" (G7f, radio-controlled), "NYK" (G7e T10 "Spinne") and "Lerche".
I have only included the notes for the NYK (text in bold are the captions from the different columns in the tables):

Table: Title missing (requirements/potentialities?)
For use by -
Submarine: Yes.
Surface vessel: Yes.
Aircraft: No (however, there's a note saying the remote-control method is possible by use of a relay-station, so I guess it was considered at some point).
Coastal battery: Yes.
Suitability for -
Attacking merchant vessels: Yes.
Attacking destroyers: ?
OT: Yes.
Salvo shots: Yes.
Angle from which attack is possible (graphic symbol, depicting possible angles): ?
Range of speed: Limited by vg/vt and position (vg=enemy speed, vt=torpedo speed)
Possibility of decisive effect: ?
Limitations: ?
Behaviour after shot: Observation until a hit occurs.

Table: Title missing
Outlay on apparatus in the torpedo: Coil, predictor.
Outlay on apparatus in the firing vessel: Predictor (coupling device).
Outlay for testing when manufactured: Predictor.
Outlay for servicing when firing: Observation or coupling predictor.

Table: Title missing
Remote control homing: Successful testing with moving targets up to 1000m. Not possible to estimate whether
torpedo misses ahead or astern of target.
Remote control homing with program course: With regards to increasing the prospects of hitting, program course only, in the case of enemy manoevers. Possibly making the ahead position feasible for remote controlled homing.

Table: Demands made on
Fundamental research and testing: Making the torpedo visible. Firing procedures.
Torpedo development: Incorporation of coil and cable outlet. Course steering. Unit mains. Incorporation of position transmitter.
Firing-vessel development: Incorporation of coil and cutting device, transmitting and operating apparatus.
Sights and firecontrol gear: Special devices for firing with leading line or coupling mechanism.
Training: Training.

Table: Present position of
Fundamental research: Homing largely clarified. Position reporting still unsolved.
Development of homing gear: Homing gear being tested.
Torpedo development: Experimental type on the model of the G7a (!)* undergoing firing tests.
*Same is noted for the NY torpedo

NOTE: It's worth mentioning that the following torpedoes are also noted with a "yes" for use with coastal batteries: "Märchen", "Ackerman", "NY" and "Lerche".

All info on the "Märchen" and "Ackerman" torpedoes would be appreciated, as well as any info on wether some of the remote-controlled torpedoes besides the "Spinne" ever saw any use in the german coastal-defence...
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by fredleander » 11 Jun 2011 20:57

jerseybunkers wrote:Having visited TB Nordlandet and TB Hambara on our visit to Norway last weekend. We were puzzled as to how these worked.

What sort of mounting was the torpedo fired from? how fast did it come out to clear the wall?

I atttach a picture of Hambara, any info would be appreciated.

Thanks from Jeremy In Jersey (No TB'S here!)
Interesting thread. Have you been at Oscarsborg?
River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book about Operation Sealion:
https://www.fredleander.com
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3 ... rw_dp_labf

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 11 Jun 2011 21:52

fredleander wrote:Interesting thread. Have you been at Oscarsborg?
The torpedo battery at Kaholmen isn't representative for how torpedoes were fired from the german batteries. This battery was unique of having three shafts blasted into the rock, each with a hoist/frame setup for lowering the torpedoes. The torpedo was started and swam out of a tunnel under water.
All other batteries (not counting the provisional "spinnebatteries") used traditional torpedotubes of different type/configuration mounted above water, launching the torpedo by means of a powder-charge or pressurized air.

The batteries at Kaholmen and Kvarven (Bergen) were original norwegian batteries established around 1900.

The new norwegian torpedobatteries that were modernized/established in the late 1990's did also rely on underwater-launching (to improve the degree of protection in regards of fortification).

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 11 Jun 2011 22:00

jerseybunkers wrote:What sort of mounting was the torpedo fired from? how fast did it come out to clear the wall?
Seems the last question hasn't been answered: I'm not sure about the speed, but depending on the tide and the installation itself, the torpedo could "fly" at least 10-15 metres before hitting the water. A G7a prepared for war-shot would weigh approx 1600kg, but the pressure needed to "propell" it out of the tube wasn't more than just 1-2 kg/cm^2.
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by jopaerya » 11 Jun 2011 23:30

Thanks again Natter for sharing this great information with us 8O 8O 8O

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by jopaerya » 03 Jul 2011 15:54

Hello

This one is planned in early 1944 at La Spezia ( Italy ) , you can see them of the list of JEF .

Regards Jos
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 03 Jul 2011 16:53

Thanks
jopaerya wrote:This one is planned in early 1944 at La Spezia ( Italy )
I assume planned at this time would mean construction never started?

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by jopaerya » 03 Jul 2011 17:38

Hi Natter

Hard to say , a flotting torpedo battery is easy build , a ponton or boat , torpedo tubes and a welder .

Regards Jos

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 03 Jul 2011 18:23

jopaerya wrote:Hard to say , a flotting torpedo battery is easy build , a ponton or boat , torpedo tubes and a welder
Yes, of course. I was thinking more about fortifications and possible remains of today :)

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Spinnebatterien

Post by Natter » 04 Jul 2011 17:08

Picking up the "Spinne"-thread again. This is from a british document (very poor quality, so there might be a few errors due to problems of interpreting the text). I have omitted several references in the text, which seem to refer to specific intelligence-reports, as they are both hard to read and probably not of much interest (if anyone need them, just let me know).


(unreadable ) NAVAL SECTION

TOP SECRET "U"

29.7.1944

(unreadable reference)

THE USE FOR COASTAL DEFENCE OF THE REMOTE-CONTROLLED TORPEDO "SPINNE"


1. Introduction
Since 7.6.44 references have appeared to a new type of coastal defence which bears the code-name "SPINNE" (Spider).


2. Description of the weapon
The defence have the form of a remote-controlled torpedo, launched from a beach or mole, to be used by the germans for the protection of ports against the approach of enemy vessels. The torpedo is electrically controlled from the shore by a cable, has a range of 6000 yards, and a speed of 30 knots. Several torpedoes can be launched simultaneously.


3. Administration
Torpedoinspectorate KIEL appears to be the chief authority concerned with "SPINNE", the torpedo trials department being responsible for arranging trials trough the local torpedo commands. Reference has also been made to "SPINNE" Torpedo Kommando ROTTERDAM.

Local torpedo commands at CHERBOURG, BREST, LORIENT, ST.NAZAIRE, LA PALLICE, BORDEUX and TOULON have all been concerned with the construction of "SPINNE" installation.

Request for supplies are made through Gruppe East O Qu, and materials are being supplied by Torpedo Arsenal West, PARIS and Torpedo Arsenal TOULON.


4. Location of "SPINNE" installations
"SPINNE" batteries are being constructed on the Atlantic and Mediterrenean coasts of FRANCE. The chief ports are affected. Already exisiting defences such as cable-barrages etc, are being replaced by "SPINNE" but will remain as additional defences.

i. Installations for "SPINNE" have already been constructed at LA PALICE, MARSEILLES and TOULON.

At LA PALLICE, mole apparatus trials were scheduled for after 29.6, but on 15.6 Torpedo Command LA PALLICE reported that the lowering device for the mole battery could not be completed before the end of june.

At MARSEILLES (landpoint) trolley trials were to take place on 25.6.

The final trials of "SPINNE" were to be held at TOULON after 23.6. Six torpedoes were to be used for the trials and afterwards made available for operations.

ii. Installations for "SPINNE" are also under construction at the following places:

a. BREST:
Constructional work for "SPINNE" is probably being carried out in the BREST area. Torpedo Command BREST was asked by Gruppe West O Qu on 13.6 to state its ground cable requirements for the torpedo.

b. LORIENT:
There is construction work for the new defence proceeding in the LORIENT area. Journeys to DOUARNENEE (? ...it's hard to read this word) and AUDIERNE from LORIENT were considered necessary in connection with "SPINNE" and Torpedo Command LORIENT was asked on 13.6. for its ground cable requirements for "SPINNE".

c. ST. NAZAIRE:
A site at FORT DE LEVE has been proposed but there has been no evidence of work having commenced.

d. POINTE DE GRAVE (opposite ROYAN, at the north of the GIRONDE):
This position would not be ready until the end of of July, owing to the construction of a "floating ram".

e. AGDE:
The construction of this position was reported delayed on 30.6 owing to the lack of fuel and oil for TODT*. A gap for "SPINNE" was left when a minefield was laid out off AGDE on 12.7. The minefield, which consists of three rows, was laid from 4317.2N, 0331.9E to 4316.3N, 0331.1E.

f. SETE:
Construction of the SETE position has also been delayed by the lack of fuel for TODT*. There is a control post, possibly belonging to "SPINNE" on the inner mole.

g. "SPINNE" installations in the area of S.D.C. LANGUEDOC, referred to as 17A, 15B, 12A, 14B and 13A were reported under construction on 13.7. At 17A the shelter was completed. The area of S.D.C. LANGUEDOC includes AGDE, SETE and MARSEILLES.

*Organisation TODT.


5. Personell
Personell who have been mentioned in connection with "SPINNE" are:
Capt von SCHEMERMARK of Gruppe West.
Sublt. (Torp.) KREFELD who was at one of the "SPINNE" installations in the LORIENT area.

Organisation TODT and Pioneer Group are carrying out constructional work for "SPINNE".
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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by jopaerya » 04 Jul 2011 19:22

Dear Moderator

Could you please split this thread in two , one for the Spinne torpedo and one Torpedo Bunkers in Norway .

Regards Jos

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 04 Jul 2011 19:56

jopaerya wrote:Could you please split this thread in two , one for the Spinne torpedo and one Torpedo Bunkers in Norway.
I suggest calling the new thread "German coastal defence torpedoes" or similar, to include discussions of torpedoes like the NYK and DACKEL also (I have some material on those as well)?

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Re: Torpedo Bunkers in Norway

Post by Natter » 14 Jul 2011 20:26

Natter wrote:NOTE: It's worth mentioning that the following torpedoes are also noted with a "yes" for use with coastal batteries: "Märchen", "Ackerman", "NY" and "Lerche".

All info on the "Märchen" and "Ackerman" torpedoes would be appreciated, as well as any info on wether some of the remote-controlled torpedoes besides the "Spinne" ever saw any use in the german coastal-defence...
Just for the record: The "Märchen" was a magnetic homing torpedo, while the "Ackerman" was a passive hydrodynamic wake-homing torpedo.

According to a memo (no date or references besides the title "Report of the sub-comission IV of the torpedo comission"), the reason (at least partly) for stopping development on the T10 and not producing more than the ca. 200 torpedoes already mentioned, was lack of resources - especially manpower. It seams the NYK and the acoustic torpedoes "Pfau", "Zaunkönig" and especially "Boje" was given priority (on a sidenote to this: A report from OKM Mar.Rüst/T in november 1944 states that resources for development of the "Zaunkönig" should be cut in favour of the improved "Geier". This was among other reasons, mainly due to the allied success in developing effective countermeasures).

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