The incredible discovered one of a German site forgotten

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Ric
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Post by Ric » 03 Feb 2006 14:04

Hello all,
Here the plan of the Battery of Maisy la Perruque
source of the plan Alain chazette

Image

Batteries of Cotentin
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/batteries.du.cotentin/
Image
The site is in French

dando
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Post by dando » 12 May 2006 00:34

Firstly may I reply to jopaerya

Your assumption that Maisy was destroyed by HMS Hawkins is just a repetition of the website and other information you quote which is incorrect. Visit the site at Maisy and you will see a) no naval damage at all. b) the site is on the reverse side of a slope and impossible for direct naval fire to destroy it. All damage was from ground troops and aeroplanes. Please stop repeating what is complete nonesense just because you have read it. The report is WRONG. Even the 3 casements at La Martiniere are in full view of the sea and have NO DAMAGE to them at all ! Please can someone who has been varify this so this is not continually repeated. Please look for yourself and then you can comment.

Re: Alain chazette although vaguely correct this diagram misses off a number of buildings and places gun pits where there are none etc. This does constitute a good guess but its inaccurate as to be misleading. For example where is the underground hospital. The personnel buildings, support buildings etc. etc.

Its interesting that when I dug the site up I removed over 2 metres of soil in some areas. When I asked the locals when the site was covered it was mainly done in 1945/46 for farming. Did you guys visit it before the buildings were covered in 1945 or did you just visit the buildings which were not covered up for the last 60 years. Lets be honest 2 of the 155mm pits were in over a metre underground - you didnt see them did you? Show me a photograph of the pit with the swivel plate mount on taken before this February... you wont be able to. So lets be honest. You visited the site as it was and not as it is now! When it opens come and have a look and see what you missed because it was 2 metres down !

The photograph of the old man and the howitzer... interesting... and I know everyone says that because it appears on the website of the Normandy Memoire then its obvious of Maisy ... I know it also appears in Le Temoinages as well.... interesting because of the 4 concrete pits it could only possibily be one because of their individual shapes. However, I have stood on the pit for a long time with this photograph trying to make it fit and I cannot. If when the site opens you can show me where the photograph has been taken from I will eat my hat. If not then please stop using it and saying its Maisy .... when it probably is not.

Please stick to the facts and that dosent mean repeating what has been written before. I dont mind critism or constructive education but please make it accurate.

Incidentally I have never said it was a NEW and UNKNOWN battery... not ever.... that was the newspapers.... the same ones which said the Germans had just left in January 2006 !

I said that the site had been forgotten about and provided some interesting answers to D-day and the invasion.

I dont understand the comment about the guns flipping over? This photograph (if it is actually Maisy) was taken after the war and the gun was probably ready to be removed by metalworkers. Nothing unusual about that.

As to the size difference between Maisy and Pdh. Look at the BIGOT invasion map for Pdh and Maisy .... black and white. The defensive position at Maisy was over TWICE the size of PdH - it covered 44 hectares.... and it had real guns as well !

Incidentally the Rangers who are alive today and who were there are providing some very interesting comments about the battle for the TV... and I quote.... "HQ complex at Maisy" and the fact that it was "firing at them from Vierville onwards as they advanced". The "Renault Turrets I remember them - they had trenches running right up to them". All veterans quotes. It also contained the regional Payroll for the German troops in the area ? The Rangers 'recovered this' on the 9th -------- some of it even got handed back in but I am sure you already knew that....

Gary

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kstdk
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Post by kstdk » 12 May 2006 09:56

Hello Gary

Nice to hear from you again.

As I said earlier - "You´ve got my attention" - meaning you will get my visit when the site is opened.

We will have to see for ourselves wont we ? :)

I will let you know when i arrive 8-)

Map form the Maisy area - also showing Pointe de Hoc - in comparison with the Maisy positions !!

Regards
Kurt
kstdk.
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dando
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Map

Post by dando » 12 May 2006 10:16

Yes, you are most welcome to visit.
The map is the Radio Communications map for the area. It is not the GSGS Inteligence Map for Maisy and PdH. You will note below that there is somewhat of a difference in size. If you get the German Minefield Map you will see the extent that Maisy was mined. Gary
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dando
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Post by dando » 12 May 2006 10:21

Size of PdH....
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AvB
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Post by AvB » 12 May 2006 12:38

I still don't know what's your point?

The Maisy was just another Atlantikwall battery, nothing new!
I'm interested to see it, but there're loads of places with the same
setup and buildings. Actually, technically for bunker hunters it's not
really interesting as you can't find a lot of St bunkers.

As for the maps, kstdk shows a German map with German designations
for the Stützpunkte. You should check out German documents too, they're
often far more reliable than allied intelligence maps and memories of locals
and allied soldiers.

dando
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Post by dando » 12 May 2006 13:54

I too dont get your point.

We are debating the subject.

I was pointing out that the map he shows indicates the radio traffic routes and is does not show the size of the batteries for comparison.

However, the maps I have posted are the same scale and do show the size different quite well. And... its alright everyone stating that PdH had this and that but on the day it had nothing.

I also didnt say there there was anything spectacular about Maisy... just that it was quite big and worth looking at. After all surely any battery which took part in the invasion battle must be worth studying as so many of them did nothing on D-day.

As I say its funny how people who have not seen it have an opinion about it... when its open come and look.

Gary

AvB
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Post by AvB » 12 May 2006 14:33

dando wrote:As I say its funny how people who have not seen it have an opinion about it....
Gary


I can have an opinion about any regular battery in the whole Atlantikwall
without having seen it. I've already seen loads of them and they were
always quite the same size. Most of the users of this forum have years
of bunkerhunting experience in the field and in the archives and know what
they talk about. You seem very annoyed by all the criticism.
What are you trying to proof?

when its open come and look..


And that's what most us think about you from the start with all the media attention.
Making money out of former French farming grounds.

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bunker14
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Post by bunker14 » 12 May 2006 14:37

dando wrote:As to the size difference between Maisy and Pdh. Look at the BIGOT invasion map for Pdh and Maisy .... black and white. The defensive position at Maisy was over TWICE the size of PdH - it covered 44 hectares.... and it had real guns as well !
The "Renault Turrets I remember them - they had trenches running right up to them".

Gary


Hi

you talking about the German Minefield Maps What this maps??
Can you tel more about the French Turret? do you have find turret Tobrouk?? on SHM plan you can see tow 50 KWK site!can be a confusion??
The Picture with hold man and Gun(155 SHF 414) is from Maisy. i have see other picture taken in 1945 from Maisy battery and you can see the same Gun!! there 's juste mùaisy battery in this sector with 155 SFH 414 (f)
I think Pointe du Hoc is more bigger than Maisy . In yellow this is the really size of maisy battery

yours Ben
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jopaerya
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Post by jopaerya » 13 May 2006 12:08

Dear Gary

This is my last message in this Topic , I have my opinion and you have yours,
I respect that , but I am always open for new views and I am learning every day .

(1) The H.M.S. Hawkins has fired on Maisy , this info is not from a internet site , but
from a book Ellis, L. F. et al. History of the Second World War. Victory in the West,
volume 1: The Battle of Normandy. London: HMSO, 1962. If you want to rewrite
history be my guest .

(2) Naval guns can fire in a direct trajectory and in a indirect trajectory , so they can
fire on slope hills just like Maisy and off cause there was a aerial bombardment see my
earlyer post . There was no damage at the bunkers you said in your post , I have been
to M.K.B. Lindemann there was the biggest aerial bombardment in W.W. 2 on the bunkers
there was no scratch on the bunkers only the damage from the Royal Engineers .
But as you know there are in a batterie site also wooden building , I don't think that they
survived the naval and aerial bombardments

(3) To compare 2 Divisionsbatteries and one Luftwaffeflakbatterie at Maisy with one
Heeres Kusten Batterie at Pointe du Hoc is comparing a apple with a egg .
Compare 9/1716 B. Maisy with 1/1716 B. Merville both Divisionbatteries .

(4) Your claim that your batterie was firing 3 days after D-Day at Omaha is based on
the G 3 report , that report says that the was firing from the Maisy area and not specific
from your batterie . Do you really think that the Allied Forces with there air superiority ,
allowed a wellknow batterie , please see your Allied pre D-Day maps , to fire for so long .
I think that the 8,8 cm Luftwaffe flak guns from the 32 Flakregiment were the guns that
fired on the Allied troops .

(5) The photo is of the gun upside down is 100 % taken at B. Maisy , on the photo you can
even see the devise to rotate the gun in the bettung , it is the same as on your photo on the
site. The 15,5 cm s.F.H. 414 (f) was only used at Maisy in the Vire area .

(6) The "proof" from a H.Q. at your site is all from "hear-say" , you haven't presented us
a single thread of solid evidence , only the 4 arialshafts on the bunker .

At least , I will visit your batterie as soon as I can , to see what there has been changed since
the last time I have visit the batterie . Don't take it all so personal , your a businessman .

Photo = Gary Sterne

Regards Jos
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dando
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Reply to comments....

Post by dando » 14 May 2006 23:00

A few comments if I may......

My ascertion is not that HMS Hawkins fired or it didnt. I dont particularly care. What I do say is that they did absolutely no damage to the site. Black and white. Its not changing history or anything of the such. You are just wrong. Go and look at the casements and please ANYONE in the whole world show me the damage from the 15 inch guns from HMS Hawkins. Unless you are suggesting that they wouldnt make a mark? My opinion or not, the facts are plain to see. If I had my photographs I would post them and prove it.

I too wont waste my time again on this one... I am either correct or wrong and you the same - everyone who looks at the casements can see the lack of damage. Infact if you look at Memoires French website they probably have good shots of the casements above ground to look at. No damage ! HMS Hawkins either didnt fire or it missed an open line of sight shot but no damage.

Maisy les Perruques - (as you have not seen it properly) - did not suffer from 15" gun damage either. Please come and stand on the pits one day and see how they could have put shells onto the site easily without having to go sailing 25 miles away and having a go !! Which if they did - didnt work. All the damage is I guess from bombing on and after D-day.

Please drop the 'business man' title - I have collected militaria since I was eight - I have also owned a militaria collectors magazine in Europe for the last 13 years - so I think I qualify to be a bit more than a disinterested businessman and certainly not patronised as one.

If you check the Org. Todt records in Berlin for Maisy you will see the British 25 pdr re-designated for German use captured at dunkirk. This was more than capable of hitting up to Les Moulins (so I am told) on Omaha Beach.

And .... lets have this correct for the very last time. That picture of the pit you state is the same as the old man photograph is INCORRECT. This pit does not have a wall around it the one with the man does. I have studied for years and years. There is only one pit on the site which COULD and I state COULD be this picture and I am more than happy to debate it face to face with anyone that its not the same one. I just dont think it is the same... I have stood on the pit and looked many times with the photograph. And... before you tell me the wall could have been destroyed this is a post war photograph.... post war the site was covered with soil and it was untouched until I cleared it. Nobody broke the wall way inbetween.

The one in the shot is NOT the same trust me. There is absolutely no reason for me to make that up... just check it out whenever.

The 'CLAIM' about Maisy firing at Omaha is covered by a number of pieces of outside information and I quote a few here.

Firstly I have real LIVING Rangers who have stated that they were under heavy artillery fire from the direction of Maisy. They are being interviewed now for a US Magazine and then for BBC TV.

Secondly, I have a living witness in Grandcamp who wrote about Maisy firing over his head towards Omaha Beach on D-Day.... he actually wrote this in a book about 10 years ago.

Thirdly, the US Government G3 reports do state on a number of occasions that Maisy was firing at Omaha Beach so I am entitled to quote that. How you can doubt that is surely speculation on your part without evidence to the contrary.

Fouthly... the Rangers attacked it and it was still firing. I have a quote from a living Ranger who said (only this week!)

and there are other sources...
................

I quote from the certificate for the award of the Distinguished Service Cross issued to Major Sullivan 5th Rangers 1944 ... it reads.....
In cooperation with United States Infantry an attack was begun on the [Maisy] battery. When certain elements were temporarily halted by artillery fire Major Sullivan, who had been wounded at [Omaha Beach], calmly and courageously rallied his officers and men, ordered a renewal of the attack, and instead of bypassing the resistance, advanced over heavily mined terrain to capture the [Maisy] battery with a loss of only fifteen (15) men.
................

The proof that it was the HQ for the area... I have $4 dollars worth of proof. But you will know all about that and other reasons already.

I welcome your next visit. You can tell me what the other buildings I havent uncovered yet are - there are 8 of them - In fact... please can you tell me now what they are as I only have the aerial photos ?

.... Also the Hospital was full of rubbish 5 metres thick... and then covered with 1 metre of soil... thats probably changed a bit since you last saw it ? The locals tell me it was buried in the 1950's.

As for the 88's - are you suggesting that they were firing at Omaha Beach ? Perhaps they were, (I think) they had the range.... but I know they were busy shooting down Allied planes.. I have a long list of what they got on D-day.

The Renault tank turrets - the Org. todt spec says 2 in use. I have an account from a Ranger this month who said that there was at least one. He said he admired it because it was well made and the trench ran right up into it. I have not found it. ... yet.

The indication in Yellow by someone saying that Maisy battery is just at Les Perruques is similifying it a bit dont you think... whats the bit on the left... nothing to worry about?

When Medic John Burke told me recently that he went up the hill to attack the casements at 'Maisy - he was actually at La Martiniere attacking from the swamp.... it was all Maisy Battery to them when they attacked it so why is it now two batteries !

As for whether the Allies did or didnt destroy Maisy as you say.... well the evidence speaks louder than words. If anyone visits Maisy I will show them the RAF reconnaisance photographs of the evening of the 5th June. No bombs fell within the wire surrounding the trenches at Maisy despite a couple of heavy raids from the RAF, RCAF, RAAF and the French Airforce (RAF) prior to the evening of 5th June. The land in front and to the rear was hit and not the site. Its black and white, just ask me and I will show you the photo. It was still fully operational as the allies landed.

I am not trying to "PROOF" anything?!... I didnt invite the media attention or your opinion... in fact you sound a bit jelous to me... "Making money out of former French farming grounds"... sounds like you too are a bit upset - yet you obviously spend a lot of time looking at "former French farming grounds."

Lastly..... I have a personal account from a Ranger in A company (again interviewed this last month) who said they had tons of ammuniton left and also lots of food... including mountains of French cheese....so before you tell me they ran out of ammuniton and food they didnt. I also have the US Engineers stating that they removed 180 tons of ammo after the battle.

.... I dont take it personally. As I said I want a lively debate because I want to find out more about the site but I also feel entitled to reply to some of the stuff written because its not always accurate.

I wont post anything else so you get the opportunity to say whatever you like and it dosent get challenged. Please come and visit the site and make your own minds up its the only way.

Gary

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bunker14
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Post by bunker14 » 15 May 2006 14:00

hi

you have studied atlantikwall???
i have see german document wo indicat a 76,5 FH (t) and not a 25 PDR!!! read the article in "39/45 Magazine"of March 2006

wath wall you talking about for the pictuer with old man????

you talking about a HQ... yes it's the Regelbau 502 only a HQ for the battery because the III/1716AR HQ was at La Cambe.

on the lef of Yellow (on maps) it's an Other battery!!! 9/1716 and 8./1716

said just the truth

dando
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Reply

Post by dando » 15 May 2006 15:42

Yes, I have studied the Atlanic Wall... and English as well... shame you havent done the same.

The photograph and the wall you will have to figure out for yourself.

The article in 1939/45 magazine is obviously correct because it is written down clearly... I think this is where you get most of your information from. The article is flawed and I wrote to them pointing out the errors... they didnt respond. But if you believe what you read then you are a happy man and I am wrong.

Do you know what the Rangers found inside the 502 bunker at Maisy....? I guess you can tell me what that was then ?

If not - then how can you despute what the building was used for. As you have absolutly no idea.

Go back to your books.

PS - the point you make about that being two batteries is incorrect - two units yes. They both had the same commanding officer.

No more now - you have enough to entertain yourselves with for years.

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bunker14
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Re: Reply

Post by bunker14 » 15 May 2006 17:22

you can to answer me in French if you want it !

For 39/45 magazine there use a part of information from me, and a friend!!


all battery in calvados with R502 (1/1716, pointe du Hoc...) use this bunker like HQ! i think Rangers
found "kabelbrunnen" inside.

you have studied atlantikwall?? i don't think! Go back to study atlantikwall you can start with this site http://site.voila.fr/bunkers
For the tow battery yes one units "III/1716" at La Cambe with two Battery in two "Wiederstandsnest" 83 and 84

You don't think strange, your are alown to said this silly thing!! no???
I know this battery since many years because I do not live far

PS:... don't make the same error than St Marcouf you ammunition stores were Vf7b.sk and not R.134!

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 15 May 2006 19:02

Yes, I have studied the Atlanic Wall... and English as well...


Please cool down a little dando!
We are here to discuss the AW, not pick on each others writing skills!
This is an international forum, and you can`t expect that everyone knows English as good as you.

Ps: You forgot an "t" in Atlantic in your previous post :wink:

Erik

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