The incredible discovered one of a German site forgotten

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
ducatim901
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Post by ducatim901 » 16 May 2006 09:46

Erik E wrote:
Yes, I have studied the Atlanic Wall... and English as well...


Please cool down a little dando!
We are here to discuss the AW, not pick on each others writing skills!
This is an international forum, and you can`t expect that everyone knows English as good as you.

Ps: You forgot an "t" in Atlantic in your previous post :wink:

Erik


I agree with Erik, this is an open forum, and need to have an open mind, for me when i read the story about a new unique battery in the newspaper and on the internet felt a little wrong just as jos said, WO II batteries are about 60 to 65 years old, you can only rediscover it, but you know papers blow everything up in huge proportions.
If you want an opinion about the batterie Maisy you are here at the right spot, but you have to read books and original documents and ofcourse talk with veterans, with the last way of accuiring information i am not very familiar, but i rather have the documents of that time than and use these at a base and use the gaps with the stories of veterans..........over 60/65 years i think we do not know we had this debate.
On the other hand did you contact bunkergoeroes like Rudi Rolf, Hans Sakkers, Dirk Peeters and Alain Chazette .
Pictures sometimes give more questions than answers, i know from my own experience, but i also know they are sometimes the answer to questions that you had years ago.
when you are restoring the site you are always welcome if you have questions about how or with what.
This forum is to make borders disapear, and it works you can see it in the members from all over the world posting questions and posting answers, but you got to have an open mind, you must use the things you didn't know in the following researches you make, never think you have seen everything, i always try to make copies of documents and use the info of these documents in my answers.
When you do research don't do it on your own, use your bunker friends and you acuire more material than when you do it on your own.
And yes i also want my own battery!!!!!!!!
but i'am not jealous.
Greetings Jack

ducatim901
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Post by ducatim901 » 16 May 2006 10:11

Dando look here, http://www.atlanticwall.polimi.it/museu ... nce_01.php , i know that the type of the defence nests are not listed, but if you see that there are 2, 3 or 4 669 or 611 are listed you know that it will probably be a divisional battery like yours, in holland we had a lot of these batteries but most of them did not receive St-bunkers like the 502 and 622, there are not many batteries left in holland where you can take an easy look at, only on Walcheren, Scheveningen, Hoek van Holland, IJmuiden and Zandvoort, the rest is gone or under the ground.
In france it is much more easy for us to visit one in a good condition.
The divisional batteries are not rare to find, only the ones that were built entirely in St. are super special, sadly the one they were going to build at Hoek van Holland was finished in a later model with use of kleinstande, but the ones with open bettungen and with a commandbunker in St. and some smaller buildings are easy to find in every country but Germany itself.
The only thing you have is a site that is special by means of history (operation Overlord) and not for its special type of bunkers.

Greetings Jack.
Last edited by ducatim901 on 19 May 2006 15:33, edited 1 time in total.

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moonraker
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Re: Reply to comments....

Post by moonraker » 17 May 2006 23:35

dando wrote:A few comments if I may......

My ascertion is not that HMS Hawkins fired or it didnt. I dont particularly care. What I do say is that they did absolutely no damage to the site. Black and white. Its not changing history or anything of the such. You are just wrong. Go and look at the casements and please ANYONE in the whole world show me the damage from the 15 inch guns from HMS Hawkins. Unless you are suggesting that they wouldnt make a mark? My opinion or not, the facts are plain to see. If I had my photographs I would post them and prove it.

I too wont waste my time again on this one... I am either correct or wrong and you the same - everyone who looks at the casements can see the lack of damage. Infact if you look at Memoires French website they probably have good shots of the casements above ground to look at. No damage ! HMS Hawkins either didnt fire or it missed an open line of sight shot but no damage.

Maisy les Perruques - (as you have not seen it properly) - did not suffer from 15" gun damage either. Please come and stand on the pits one day and see how they could have put shells onto the site easily without having to go sailing 25 miles away and having a go !! Which if they did - didnt work. All the damage is I guess from bombing on and after D-day.

Please drop the 'business man' title - I have collected militaria since I was eight - I have also owned a militaria collectors magazine in Europe for the last 13 years - so I think I qualify to be a bit more than a disinterested businessman and certainly not patronised as one.

If you check the Org. Todt records in Berlin for Maisy you will see the British 25 pdr re-designated for German use captured at dunkirk. This was more than capable of hitting up to Les Moulins (so I am told) on Omaha Beach.

And .... lets have this correct for the very last time. That picture of the pit you state is the same as the old man photograph is INCORRECT. This pit does not have a wall around it the one with the man does. I have studied for years and years. There is only one pit on the site which COULD and I state COULD be this picture and I am more than happy to debate it face to face with anyone that its not the same one. I just dont think it is the same... I have stood on the pit and looked many times with the photograph. And... before you tell me the wall could have been destroyed this is a post war photograph.... post war the site was covered with soil and it was untouched until I cleared it. Nobody broke the wall way inbetween.

The one in the shot is NOT the same trust me. There is absolutely no reason for me to make that up... just check it out whenever.

The 'CLAIM' about Maisy firing at Omaha is covered by a number of pieces of outside information and I quote a few here.

Firstly I have real LIVING Rangers who have stated that they were under heavy artillery fire from the direction of Maisy. They are being interviewed now for a US Magazine and then for BBC TV.

Secondly, I have a living witness in Grandcamp who wrote about Maisy firing over his head towards Omaha Beach on D-Day.... he actually wrote this in a book about 10 years ago.

Thirdly, the US Government G3 reports do state on a number of occasions that Maisy was firing at Omaha Beach so I am entitled to quote that. How you can doubt that is surely speculation on your part without evidence to the contrary.

Fouthly... the Rangers attacked it and it was still firing. I have a quote from a living Ranger who said (only this week!)

and there are other sources...
................

I quote from the certificate for the award of the Distinguished Service Cross issued to Major Sullivan 5th Rangers 1944 ... it reads.....
In cooperation with United States Infantry an attack was begun on the [Maisy] battery. When certain elements were temporarily halted by artillery fire Major Sullivan, who had been wounded at [Omaha Beach], calmly and courageously rallied his officers and men, ordered a renewal of the attack, and instead of bypassing the resistance, advanced over heavily mined terrain to capture the [Maisy] battery with a loss of only fifteen (15) men.
................

The proof that it was the HQ for the area... I have $4 dollars worth of proof. But you will know all about that and other reasons already.

I welcome your next visit. You can tell me what the other buildings I havent uncovered yet are - there are 8 of them - In fact... please can you tell me now what they are as I only have the aerial photos ?

.... Also the Hospital was full of rubbish 5 metres thick... and then covered with 1 metre of soil... thats probably changed a bit since you last saw it ? The locals tell me it was buried in the 1950's.

As for the 88's - are you suggesting that they were firing at Omaha Beach ? Perhaps they were, (I think) they had the range.... but I know they were busy shooting down Allied planes.. I have a long list of what they got on D-day.

The Renault tank turrets - the Org. todt spec says 2 in use. I have an account from a Ranger this month who said that there was at least one. He said he admired it because it was well made and the trench ran right up into it. I have not found it. ... yet.

The indication in Yellow by someone saying that Maisy battery is just at Les Perruques is similifying it a bit dont you think... whats the bit on the left... nothing to worry about?

When Medic John Burke told me recently that he went up the hill to attack the casements at 'Maisy - he was actually at La Martiniere attacking from the swamp.... it was all Maisy Battery to them when they attacked it so why is it now two batteries !

As for whether the Allies did or didnt destroy Maisy as you say.... well the evidence speaks louder than words. If anyone visits Maisy I will show them the RAF reconnaisance photographs of the evening of the 5th June. No bombs fell within the wire surrounding the trenches at Maisy despite a couple of heavy raids from the RAF, RCAF, RAAF and the French Airforce (RAF) prior to the evening of 5th June. The land in front and to the rear was hit and not the site. Its black and white, just ask me and I will show you the photo. It was still fully operational as the allies landed.

I am not trying to "PROOF" anything?!... I didnt invite the media attention or your opinion... in fact you sound a bit jelous to me... "Making money out of former French farming grounds"... sounds like you too are a bit upset - yet you obviously spend a lot of time looking at "former French farming grounds."

Lastly..... I have a personal account from a Ranger in A company (again interviewed this last month) who said they had tons of ammuniton left and also lots of food... including mountains of French cheese....so before you tell me they ran out of ammuniton and food they didnt. I also have the US Engineers stating that they removed 180 tons of ammo after the battle.

.... I dont take it personally. As I said I want a lively debate because I want to find out more about the site but I also feel entitled to reply to some of the stuff written because its not always accurate.

I wont post anything else so you get the opportunity to say whatever you like and it dosent get challenged. Please come and visit the site and make your own minds up its the only way.

Gary






bof bof bof

8O

researchguy
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Post by researchguy » 18 May 2006 03:25

What does bof bof bof mean?

Seems like some of you are jealous at this fellow's discovery.

Why are some of you always so negative? Can it not be possible what he says?

I would tend to agree with the battery's new owner that if this site was covered with dirt after the war ended, then how can any of you so-called experts know what he has or has not uncovered. He seems to make a convincing case.

And you poo-poo his research, yet claim the documents you have researched are infallible and should be believed? Why should I believe your documents over his?

And how dare you poo-poo the memories of the veterans - these are the same men who risked their lives to free some of your family from tyranny.

You guys shouldn't be so presumtuous.

And to keep refering to him as a businessman - so what? I suppose you visit the other sites in France, or wherever and I would imagine they are run by businessmen too? How silly.

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Ric
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Post by Ric » 18 May 2006 08:42

researchguy wrote:What does bof bof bof mean?

Seems like some of you are jealous at this fellow's discovery.

Why are some of you always so negative? Can it not be possible what he says?

I would tend to agree with the battery's new owner that if this site was covered with dirt after the war ended, then how can any of you so-called experts know what he has or has not uncovered. He seems to make a convincing case.

And you poo-poo his research, yet claim the documents you have researched are infallible and should be believed? Why should I believe your documents over his?

And how dare you poo-poo the memories of the veterans - these are the same men who risked their lives to free some of your family from tyranny.

You guys shouldn't be so presumtuous.

And to keep refering to him as a businessman - so what? I suppose you visit the other sites in France, or wherever and I would imagine they are run by businessmen too? How silly.



It is not a problem of jealousy or other ,but simply to say the truth.
There is nothing malicious good it inside.

Batteries of Cotentin
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/batteries.du.cotentin/
Image
The site is in French

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moonraker
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Post by moonraker » 18 May 2006 09:02

hello resarchguy,is not jalous
is my way of saying that the history should not be circumvented.
but to say the historical truth.
regards.
etienne :wink:

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kstdk
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Post by kstdk » 18 May 2006 09:20

Hello

About the documents - Its original German documents from BAMA in Freiburg made by the Germans.

They build the damn thing did´nt they ?? So, they must know, right ??

US and British intelligence maps and documents are made on speculations beforehand or made from evaluations after the war, and are more or less correct - but i would say that drawings of any sort from the source itselve ( read: German troops and OT that buildt the positions ) are most reliable.


researchguy wrote:I would tend to agree with the battery's new owner that if this site was covered with dirt after the war ended, then how can any of you so-called experts know what he has or has not uncovered. He seems to make a convincing case.

And you poo-poo his research, yet claim the documents you have researched are infallible and should be believed? Why should I believe your documents over his?


And when that is said, i must say that i have the deepest respect for a man who does this kind of work for preservation of history and restoring of items of historic value to us all.

And in many things he is right in what he says - and for sure - what has been under the soil for years - no one of us has seen - and we will have to go and see for ourselves - as i said before. So there is no need for saying "booo and Bof Bof" at any comment that Gary / "Dando" brings - he is in every right to comment and bring his documentation into this discussion - right !!!

What we are discussing right now is the differences in opinions / reading of different maps and drawings and what really happend there.

To bring jealousy or disrespect for veterans into this discussion is not the way to continue this talk.

If we cannot discuss the tecnical and historic facts in a proper manner - i am "outahere" !!!

And to "researchguy" - if you have some constructive comments and some facts about this discussion - please bring them to our attention - as we all tend to stick to historic facts and reliable sources.

Regards
Kurt
kstdk

researchguy
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Post by researchguy » 18 May 2006 21:29

Please tell me...what bunkers do the OT plans say are at the two Maisy sites? WN83 and WN84. When were these particular plans drawn-up (my educated guess is circa 1942), and were there any additions to the sites that are reflected on updated plans?

AvB
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Post by AvB » 19 May 2006 10:35

researchguy wrote:Please tell me...what bunkers do the OT plans say are at the two Maisy sites? WN83 and WN84. When were these particular plans drawn-up (my educated guess is circa 1942), and were there any additions to the sites that are reflected on updated plans?


Maisy Perreques: 2 x 622 (eventually one 622 and a 502), 4 x 669 (to replace the emplacements, never built, Schartenbauprogramm)
Maisy, St Martiniere: 4 x 612 (2 im bau at ), 1 x 622

Additions to the sites are VF bunkers which aren't listed.
These are usually the same in every complex.
They can be nice but there're far more of them than there are St bunkers.

ducatim901
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Post by ducatim901 » 19 May 2006 15:40

researchguy wrote:Please tell me...what bunkers do the OT plans say are at the two Maisy sites? WN83 and WN84. When were these particular plans drawn-up (my educated guess is circa 1942), and were there any additions to the sites that are reflected on updated plans?


Hey, Researchguy,
you could have "Researched" yourself if you "Researched" the whole topic and clicked on the link i posted of the Atlanticwall Linear Museum and did some research in the archive-> bauprogramme of this site............
Greetings Jack

Edit;
EHHH, and i think you write Kanada with an C???

researchguy
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Post by researchguy » 19 May 2006 20:01

ducatim901 wrote:
researchguy wrote:Please tell me...what bunkers do the OT plans say are at the two Maisy sites? WN83 and WN84. When were these particular plans drawn-up (my educated guess is circa 1942), and were there any additions to the sites that are reflected on updated plans?


Hey, Researchguy,
you could have "Researched" yourself if you "Researched" the whole topic and clicked on the link i posted of the Atlanticwall Linear Museum and did some research in the archive-> bauprogramme of this site............
Greetings Jack

Edit;
EHHH, and i think you write Kanada with an C???


smartass

researchguy
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Post by researchguy » 19 May 2006 20:10

ducatim901 wrote:
researchguy wrote:Please tell me...what bunkers do the OT plans say are at the two Maisy sites? WN83 and WN84. When were these particular plans drawn-up (my educated guess is circa 1942), and were there any additions to the sites that are reflected on updated plans?


Hey, Researchguy,
you could have "Researched" yourself if you "Researched" the whole topic and clicked on the link i posted of the Atlanticwall Linear Museum and did some research in the archive-> bauprogramme of this site............
Greetings Jack

Edit;
EHHH, and i think you write Kanada with an C???


And I think Netherlands is synonomous with "defeated during WW II and liberated by Canadians?" No?

You really are a cheeky bird, but that's okay. I've run across your likes before. You have no effect on me.

I asked a pretty simple question. In case you've forgotten, here it is again:

What do the "official" plans say was built in 1942 versus what was actually found at the recently excavated sit, which would have been there at D-Day +3?

Could there have been bunker additions at the site between the years 1943 and 1944? And if the answer is yes, could these additions not necessarily have been recorded on "official" blueprints?

researchguy
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Post by researchguy » 19 May 2006 20:12

Thank you AvB.

ducatim901
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Post by ducatim901 » 19 May 2006 21:27

researchguy wrote:
ducatim901 wrote:
researchguy wrote:Please tell me...what bunkers do the OT plans say are at the two Maisy sites? WN83 and WN84. When were these particular plans drawn-up (my educated guess is circa 1942), and were there any additions to the sites that are reflected on updated plans?


Hey, Researchguy,
you could have "Researched" yourself if you "Researched" the whole topic and clicked on the link i posted of the Atlanticwall Linear Museum and did some research in the archive-> bauprogramme of this site............
Greetings Jack

Edit;
EHHH, and i think you write Kanada with an C???


And I think Netherlands is synonomous with "defeated during WW II and liberated by Canadians?" No?

You really are a cheeky bird, but that's okay. I've run across your likes before. You have no effect on me.

I asked a pretty simple question. In case you've forgotten, here it is again:

What do the "official" plans say was built in 1942 versus what was actually found at the recently excavated sit, which would have been there at D-Day +3?

Could there have been bunker additions at the site between the years 1943 and 1944? And if the answer is yes, could these additions not necessarily have been recorded on "official" blueprints?


The additions if made are probably drawn on the German maps but most are from Holland, i got a lot maps but the most are from 42 and 43 and there are not many drawings in my collection, if there are maps they would have been up to date!!!!!!
But sadly i did not do much research on the Normandy bunkers, so no German drawings in my archive, but the most divisional batteries as Arthur stated had few St bunkers and the most batteries had no covered emplacements.

The Germans did probably not much draw work in 1944/1945 probably because the bunkers were already built and the only thing that had to be done was to "insert" the casemates iin to the batterie, an other explanation is that the drawings were destroyed in the hectic pulling back period after the invasion...........

And ofcourse i'am glad the Canadiens liberated a major part of Holland, I have a books and documents about the Canadiens in Holland, and they fought with courage and knowledge.

Greetings Jack

Are there no Canadian archives with drawings or documents about the German fortifications, i know that there are a lot pictures in the canadian archives...........
Greetings Jack ''can't have everything'' Koorneef

researchguy
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Post by researchguy » 19 May 2006 23:48

Thank you.

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