Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
Re: Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
Hi Alain
Not all , that is true the 669 in the H.K.B. Oudorp ( 6 x 15.2 cm s.K.H. 433/1 (r) ) had also this block .
Regards Jos
Not all , that is true the 669 in the H.K.B. Oudorp ( 6 x 15.2 cm s.K.H. 433/1 (r) ) had also this block .
Regards Jos
Re: Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
I guess if it was already known at the time of construction which weapon was going to be used in the bunker, the embrasure was built accordingly. Otherwise it was possible to change the embrasure subsequently.wimve wrote:Good discussion here: one more question. Are these "Scharteverkleinerungen" made during the build or afterwards ?
Here is a drawing of how the latter was done for the 677.
Re: Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
hello
Below, a photo of a bunker with a scharteverkleinerung with the canon still in place... as we can see for this specific type of gun (88mm according to photocaption), the schartenverkleinerung nicely closes the unprotected gap inbetween the guns shield and it's wheelbase...
(sorry no source on this photo... forgot to write down at the time... photocaption was '88mm at Utahbeach')
In the several topic's in this forum on the subject of the schartenverkleinerung I read that this feature was Always placed right (when looking from inside the bunker)...
If I recall well (and I think I do, but I will have to dubbelcheck on this); there is at least one exception on that 'rule':
In the fieldbattery 049 of KVA A3 (Belgium - Adinkerke) we had 4 times R611 of which 2 remain; the n°2 and n°4 are still intact. The n°4, which is the one with Original wooden doors and which one is opened to the public at special occasions has it's schartenverkleinerung on the right... in this direction (to the right of this bunker) no other bunkers where standing.
In the other remaining bunker - the n°2, the one which is assumed not to be accessible - the scharteverkleinerung is positioned on the left of this bunker!!! ... to the left of this bunker was once standing the R611 n°1 of which we don't know if it had a scharteverkleinerung and where it was positioned, nore do we have these informations for the R611 n°3 which has also been demolished.
A long shot theory of mine:
In batteries with several gunbunkers standing in line, both the first and last gunbunker had a schartenverkleinerung... the first bunker has it on the left, the last bunker on the right... in other words the schartenverkleinerung is positioned in the direction in which no more gunbunkers can be found. Assuming that the gunbunkers inbetween the first and last gunbunker lacked such a schartenverkleinerung, I think it has something to do with the firingrage...
All bunkers have an overlapping firingrange with it's neighboring bunkers; only the first bunker doesn't have an overlapping firingrange to it's left as no more bunkers are standing in this direction... so to set the boundaries of the firing range a schartenverkleinerung was placed on the left... same for the last bunker but then positioned to the right
... just a theory of mine???
Below, a photo of a bunker with a scharteverkleinerung with the canon still in place... as we can see for this specific type of gun (88mm according to photocaption), the schartenverkleinerung nicely closes the unprotected gap inbetween the guns shield and it's wheelbase...
(sorry no source on this photo... forgot to write down at the time... photocaption was '88mm at Utahbeach')
In the several topic's in this forum on the subject of the schartenverkleinerung I read that this feature was Always placed right (when looking from inside the bunker)...
If I recall well (and I think I do, but I will have to dubbelcheck on this); there is at least one exception on that 'rule':
In the fieldbattery 049 of KVA A3 (Belgium - Adinkerke) we had 4 times R611 of which 2 remain; the n°2 and n°4 are still intact. The n°4, which is the one with Original wooden doors and which one is opened to the public at special occasions has it's schartenverkleinerung on the right... in this direction (to the right of this bunker) no other bunkers where standing.
In the other remaining bunker - the n°2, the one which is assumed not to be accessible - the scharteverkleinerung is positioned on the left of this bunker!!! ... to the left of this bunker was once standing the R611 n°1 of which we don't know if it had a scharteverkleinerung and where it was positioned, nore do we have these informations for the R611 n°3 which has also been demolished.
A long shot theory of mine:
In batteries with several gunbunkers standing in line, both the first and last gunbunker had a schartenverkleinerung... the first bunker has it on the left, the last bunker on the right... in other words the schartenverkleinerung is positioned in the direction in which no more gunbunkers can be found. Assuming that the gunbunkers inbetween the first and last gunbunker lacked such a schartenverkleinerung, I think it has something to do with the firingrage...
All bunkers have an overlapping firingrange with it's neighboring bunkers; only the first bunker doesn't have an overlapping firingrange to it's left as no more bunkers are standing in this direction... so to set the boundaries of the firing range a schartenverkleinerung was placed on the left... same for the last bunker but then positioned to the right
... just a theory of mine???
- dirk Peeters
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Re: Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
ill see this when i m at home
We measured the two 611
i know of one 611 who has this block on the left (Berck Plage) and that is the only one known for the moment
i ll put some photos of your bttr when i m home
Dirk
We measured the two 611
i know of one 611 who has this block on the left (Berck Plage) and that is the only one known for the moment
i ll put some photos of your bttr when i m home
Dirk
Re:
Hi !jopaerya wrote:Hi Robert
The strange structure is called "Schartenverkleinerung"
always on the right side of the gun as you can see on
the drawing .
Regards Jos
Photo taken two weeks ago (H669,Ro 428 Klara, île de Ré): JL Moser
Re: Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
Sorry Jean but I don't agree with you: both remaining R611 from Adinkerke (Stp Bochum) have the block on the right side.In the other remaining bunker - the n°2, the one which is assumed not to be accessible - the scharteverkleinerung is positioned on the left of this bunker!!! ... to the left of this bunker was once standing the R611 n°1 of which we don't know if it had a scharteverkleinerung and where it was positioned, nore do we have these informations for the R611 n°3 which has also been demolished.
Gr.
Pierrot
Re: Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
Thanks Pierrot... then I must be recalling it's position wrong... sorry for that.
As I said, I needed to dubbelcheck as I wasn't 100% shure (no need to now as you recalled it's correct position)
Dubbelchecking would mean re-entering this bunker which is known as being sealed off...
Jean
As I said, I needed to dubbelcheck as I wasn't 100% shure (no need to now as you recalled it's correct position)
Dubbelchecking would mean re-entering this bunker which is known as being sealed off...
Jean
- dirk Peeters
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- Posts: 6568
- Joined: 24 May 2011, 21:18
- Location: Heist op den Berg Belgium
Re: Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
yep my archive drawnings give the blocks on the same side in these two 611
and "schartenverkleinerung doesn t seem to be the reason for these blocks
We can say they are always the same dimensions , only the height can be different
Dirk
and "schartenverkleinerung doesn t seem to be the reason for these blocks
We can say they are always the same dimensions , only the height can be different
Dirk
Re: Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
Remains of a 12.2 cm K390/2(r)
Emmanuel
Emmanuel
Re: Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
Some NARA information about the guns that could be used in the 611 and 669
please note the 15.5 cm s.F.H. 414 (f) only fired with ear protection .
Regards Jos
please note the 15.5 cm s.F.H. 414 (f) only fired with ear protection .
Regards Jos
- dirk Peeters
- Member
- Posts: 6568
- Joined: 24 May 2011, 21:18
- Location: Heist op den Berg Belgium
Re: Strange concrete structure in R 611 & R 669
very nice info
Thanks
Thanks