Unknown Ringstand.

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M19 MADMAL
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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#76

Post by M19 MADMAL » 30 Mar 2012, 13:52

Hi,

After a PM from Jos I have been looking at the Ringstand/Tobruk on Jersey.

First is this 'Box' example for mounting a FT 17 turret of which I have seen 3 examples on Jersey with 1 each at Wn . Südfort, Wn Aubins Fort an at an unkown position in front at La Pulente It is (looking at the entrance) 370cm wide, 330 long and the entrance which is central on the back is 80cm wide. Inside they look exactly like the outside and have no 'rooms' or compartments.
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300312 003.jpg
The example at La Pulente
300312 003.jpg (72.14 KiB) Viewed 655 times
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#77

Post by M19 MADMAL » 30 Mar 2012, 14:00

At Wn La Carriere can be found 3 x Tobruk for an M.G. but they are all unusial as the front 3 walls in the 'fighting room' have been extended out by 20cm & the doorway into the 'fighting room' has the side oppersite the entrance missing in all 3 as can be see in the photos below.
Attachments
300312 005.jpg
looking in showin how the front 3 walls are extended by 20cm
300312 005.jpg (66.37 KiB) Viewed 653 times
300312 006.jpg
The outside of the Tobruk follows the inside pattern
300312 006.jpg (78.67 KiB) Viewed 653 times
300312 004.jpg
The missing side wall inside
300312 004.jpg (65.11 KiB) Viewed 653 times
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/


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moonraker
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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#78

Post by moonraker » 30 Mar 2012, 14:04

hello,
I think tobruk U first war built square. any model on the Cherbourg area J1 and J2.for one photo ..

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#79

Post by M19 MADMAL » 30 Mar 2012, 14:10

. . . 2 of the Tobruks at Wn. La Carriere are as above (1 is in mirror) and the 3rd has its outside squared off to a 'L' shape as below. I would guess that the front is widened inside to allow for ammunition storage.

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:

PS. Jos all the Tobruks I have see are of the 58 'type' and I have not seen any yet that look like a VF8
Attachments
300312 008.jpg
the side are wider to allow for the 'buldge' at the front
300312 008.jpg (78.93 KiB) Viewed 651 times
300312 009.jpg
inside with the cut out wall
300312 009.jpg (60.75 KiB) Viewed 651 times
300312 012.jpg
the widening at the front
300312 012.jpg (61.21 KiB) Viewed 651 times
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#80

Post by jopaerya » 30 Mar 2012, 16:04

Thanks Malcolm

For your reply and the picture's , as allways a few strange one's at the Channel Islands .
Nice to see the space for the ammunition storage and the enlarged passage .

Regards Jos

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#81

Post by moonraker » 30 Mar 2012, 16:26

hi jos,
I think Dirk will be happy to see the funny tobruk !! me also ... in fact it is the separation wall in the room that is not built .... the access to the market is also different.

hi malcolm you can help with dimenssions ??? great worck !! please the photo with the quistion ??

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#82

Post by moonraker » 30 Mar 2012, 16:39

what new quistion malcolm ?? thank in advance ??
the wall of tobruk 40 cm or + ???
I think the reinforcement of concrete on the front is for the strength of tobruk,of a part is missing.

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#83

Post by M19 MADMAL » 31 Mar 2012, 15:33

Hi,

Here is the sizes.

A nice little feature I noticed today are that the 6 walls in the ringstand part have faint numbers on them which run from left to right and these numbers are in mirror so they would have been on the woodern shuttering to show indicate the panel number and its location, sadly they don't show up in the photos :(

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
Attachments
Tobruk.jpg
300312 011.jpg
300312 011.jpg (76.79 KiB) Viewed 586 times
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#84

Post by jopaerya » 31 Mar 2012, 15:58

Thanks Malcolm

For your drawing , the tobruk looks to me a VF 25 8O 8O 8O

Regards Jos

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#85

Post by M19 MADMAL » 31 Mar 2012, 17:38

jopaerya wrote:For your drawing , the tobruk looks to me a VF 25 8O 8O 8O
I guess that it's not a type you see every day then :o

I will pay more attention to the Tobruks on Jersey from now on! :lol:

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#86

Post by wimve » 31 Mar 2012, 17:44

Looks to me a hybride between a 60cm (58) and 80cm tobruk with an offset of the center of 10cm.
From the drawings of Dirk I guess that these two (60 and 80) tobruks where the basic designs. 60 and 80 referr to the sides of the octagonal pit....
Tobruk_60-80.jpg
And please use the document to measure a tobruk .....
Do you have the dimensions of the steps and the heights ?
Thanks,

Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#87

Post by M19 MADMAL » 31 Mar 2012, 18:03

wimve wrote:And please use the document to measure a tobruk .....
Do you have the dimensions of the steps and the heights ?
What is "the document to measure a tobruk"?

The steps are buried but I can dig them out in the next few days if you need the sizes?

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#88

Post by jopaerya » 31 Mar 2012, 18:27

Hello

Here a drawing of the VF 25 , the outershape of the bunker and the
room 1.10 by 2.00 are the same only the part of the turret is different .

Drawing = Jan Lugtmeijer

Regards Jos
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Naamloos.jpg

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#89

Post by wimve » 31 Mar 2012, 18:41

M19 MADMAL wrote: What is "the document to measure a tobruk"?
Malcolm,

Please take a look here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1687345
It is a blanco set of drawings of tobruk cross sections. This way you don't have to sketch it and "only" fill in the dimensions. Also I guess it will help not to miss a dimension. :wink:

Steps:
No you don't have to dig them up for me.
As you may know I draw 3D models. If you want me to make one from this tobruk then I need more info..... So I leave it up to you.
Thanks,

Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html

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Re: Unknown Ringstand.

#90

Post by M19 MADMAL » 31 Mar 2012, 19:41

wimve wrote:
Please take a look here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1687345
It is a blanco set of drawings of tobruk cross sections. This way you don't have to sketch it and "only" fill in the dimensions. Also I guess it will help not to miss a dimension. :wink:

Steps:
No you don't have to dig them up for me.
As you may know I draw 3D models. If you want me to make one from this tobruk then I need more info..... So I leave it up to you.
AH! Got it on the Tobruk drawings :wink: I noticed that I missed the door width :oops:

I will measure the steps (and door :roll: ) for you so this 'type' of Tobruk can be added to the records.

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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