WW2 small arms - if you're interested, contribute

[CroGer]

Hi,

for anybody who is - like me - interested in stats about the firearms used and produced by the axis, here's your thread.
Over the last months, I have compiled stats about german small arms used. This list is incomplete and it would be a great help for me if some of you could contribute something.
I own a K98 (1937), a SMLE no.4 MkI, a Mosin M44, an M1 carbine, and a Schmidt-Rubin K31, a Chassepot, and a Dreyse M44 (Saarn).

They all get along very well
I am a follower of "Forgotten Weapons" and similar channels.

And I love statistics. I am interested in how the axis supplied their huge infantry.

My sources thusfar have been:
http://claus.espeholt.dk/mediearkiv/gprod_c.pdf
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/gewehre.htm
"Sturmgewehr!" by Hans-Dieter Handrich
http://www.hungariae.com/Mann9840.htm
Internet Research
And the book series by Dieter Strorz about german rifles

So for everybody who is interested in WW2 firearms, here you go:

Rifles (Bolt actions/Mehrlader) (8x57 only):

Rifles build pre-1933: 663.650
K98: 14.588.158 (1934-1945)
Czech rifles (captured 1938): 1.064.700
G24(t) (czech K98): 330.050
G33/40 (shortened czech K98): 156.803
G29(p) (polish K98): 423.943
Volksgewehre: 53.033

bought:
Hungary: Mannlicher G98/40: 138.400

= 17.418.737

Question: how many rifles did the austrian military have pre-Anschluß?


Possibly captured:
Polish:
G98(p): 44.500
K98(p): 264.000
Mosin K91/23: 77.000 (Mosin converted to 8x57)

Yugoslav:
K98: 822.000



Submachine Guns (9x19 only):

MP18/28/35: 13.060
MP35 (Junker&Ruh): ~40.000
MP34(ö): 8.238
MP38/40: 1.147.237 (- mar 45)
MP41: 26.700
Danish Suomi MP31(M41): 1.431 (danish military was disarmed in 1943)
Beretta M38 (produced under occupation): 231.193
MP3008: 28.000

Bought:
Finnland: Suomi MP31: 3.042

= 1.498.901

Possibly captured:
Dutch MP28: 2.240
Belgian MP28 (MI 34 Schmeisser-Bayard M1934): 1.500-1.811


Machine Guns (8x57 only), Infantry use only

MG08, MG08/15, MG 13: 42.722
MG07/12 (ö): 3.024
MG 07/24 (t): 7.109
MG Zb 37 (t): 11.974
zb 26/30 (t): 41.637
MG30 (ö): 4.122
MG34: 418.589 (- feb 45)
MG42: 415.931
Knorr-Bremse Mg/36: possibly 500, only used in training

= 945.608

Possibly captured:

Polish BAR: 24.000
Yugoslavian MG26 (MG37): 70.000


semi-automatics:

G41(m): 6.678
G41(w): 127.843
G43: 415.000
Mkb42/Stg44: 437.777 (-mar 45)
FG42: ?
VG1-5: ?

= 987.298

Weapons used:

Bolt actions: 17.418.737 (83.54%)
MG: 945.608 (4.535%)
SMG: 1.498.901 (7,2%)
Semi-Automatics: 987.298 (4,735%)
Overall = 20.850.544

Questions:

1) Does anybody have reliable figures about how many FG42's were produced? There were two series. "Lexikon der Wehrmacht" IMO only give the number for the second varian (4.397)

2) does anybody know how many weapons were caputured from the western nations?

3) Did the czech factories produce the 650.000 rifles for romania, or had romania a domestic production?

4) did the weapons factory in Kragujevac keep producing rifles and MG37's?

5) were weapons and ammunition factories kept running or were build in the occupied part of the USSR?

If somebody is interested in how the significance of gun types changed, production prices, man hours, ammunition, or other weapons like hand handgrenades, rifle grenades, Panzerfausts a.s.o., I can provide these as well.

I hope somebody finds a thread like this valuable. I guess i am not the only gun- an statistics-nut here.

[Poot]

Hi CroGer,
I too research and collect WWII small arms, primarily German-captured arms (Beutewaffen). I like your enthusiasm and energy, it's nice to see on a relatively underrepresented sub-forum here.

I can only offer a few things here and there, and really only with any direct knowledge of bolt-action weapons. Here are my suggestions:

1.) In addition to Storz's work, I'd try and concentrate on more printed sources for now, not just internet sites. The discussion fora are very good for exchanging information in a more timely and up to date manner, especially when collectors and researchers are able to share their finding more readily and quicker than waiting for a book to see the light of day. I recommend k98kforum.com and gunboards.com as two of the better current discussion sites. That being said, only in some printed works do you find reprinted archival documents or at least citation of them. That's what you'll want if you are to pursue the statistics end of this.

2.) The G.24(t) is definitely not a Czech K98, but a 'Germanized' VZ-24 rifle. 'G.24(t)' is listed as both a distinctive rifle made under German direction and control in occupied Czechoslovakia from 1941-1942, and as a general designation in manuals like the Kennblatter fremden Gerats for the VZ-24. It simply means, 'Model 24 Rifle, Czechoslovakia.' The K98k rifle was the standard German bolt-action battle rifle of WWII, and was only produced in Germany or under German control in occupied countries under the control of local teams of the Heeres WaffenAmt.

3.) The G.33/40 was not a shortened K98, but a German copy of the Czech VZ-33. These were earmarked for Gebirgsjager and Fallschirmjager units for the most part.

4.) The G.29(p) is just one type of Polish arm used, but there were many. I get the feeling that there are many numbers missing from your source, as a category such as 'Czech rifle, captured' lacks the specification by type that is evident throughout most of the rest of your list. I've seen the same generalizing done by a source in a 1942 Italian military small arms inventory, but we can't change how they conducted their arms counts back then.

5.) I found this section a bit puzzling:
"Possibly captured:
Polish:
G98(p): 44.500
K98(p): 264.000
Mosin K91/23: 77.000 (Mosin converted to 8x57)"

From which source did this come, and how did they arrive at this conclusion? Some of the captured Polish numbers are problematic because a fairly well-known document is frequently cited, with further numbers extrapolated from there. The problem is that the Soviets wound up with roughly half of Poland, including all of the small arms they could seize and bring back to the USSR proper.

6.) Yugoslavia as a country did not have K98k rifles until AFTER WWII, and only as a result of being in possession of captured/surrendered German rifles. The K98k rifle was NEVER manufactured there, only refurbished in the post-war period.

7.) I think the only documents that might give an idea of how many arms were captured from western nations would be inventories, and these would be subject to generalization and rounded numbers. I would love to see docs that provide more/any information on small arms captured from other nations, but they seem to be very few and far between.

8.) VZ-24 Mauser rifles were produced in occupied Czechoslovakia for Romanian contracts. It's believed that some of these rifles and parts were requisitioned by the Wehrmacht for their own use, but many rifles were provided to Romanian armed forces regardless. I don't know how many they received, but I do know that Romania wasn't producing their own VZ-24's.

9.) The factory in Kragujevac ceased producing weapons from the time it was abandoned after the German invasion in April 1941. There are stories of partisans or others assembling whole rifles from more or less finished components, but true production was halted entirely until the post-war period.

10.) With very few exceptions, Soviet arms factories, depots, and storage facilities were disassembled, re-located or destroyed in the wake of the German advance in 1941. I think I've only heard of two depots captured intact, and these were in a Baltic country.

11.) Regarding per unit costs and time required to build particular weapons, I'd consult Darrin Weaver's books on the G.43 and the Volkssturm small arms.

I hope this helps,
Pat

[CroGer]

Hi CroGer,
I too research and collect WWII small arms, primarily German-captured arms (Beutewaffen). I like your enthusiasm and energy, it's nice to see on a relatively underrepresented sub-forum here.

I can only offer a few things here and there, and really only with any direct knowledge of bolt-action weapons. Here are my suggestions:
[...]

11.) Regarding per unit costs and time required to build particular weapons, I'd consult Darrin Weaver's books on the G.43 and the Volkssturm small arms.

I hope this helps,
Pat

For the sake of simplicity, since not everybody who reads this thread is a Mauser connaisseur , i used descriptions like "czech K98" - since everybody here should know the "1,1m System Mauser bolt action rifle in caliber 8x57".

I am relatively new to this forum. When I made this thread, I thought that it would be possible for me to edit it afterwards.
Now I find out - I can't edit that damn thing. So it's very sloppily made.

Over the days I already found out that some of my data was wrong. According to "Sturmgewehr!", Junker & Ruh only produced 31.200 MP35, not 40.000. Albert Speer told the SS to knock off their special demands for expensive weapons, and replaced the rest of the order with MP44's.

Another User gave me a valuable link to a website with a list of the entire yugoslavian arsenal. The yugoslavians never had 70.000 Zb vz 26/30/M37, that was data from the serbian wikipedia page.

Well, let's consider this thread a "nice try". Like I said, I can't edit it. If some other have data about captured weapons - all I can offer is at one point opening a new thread.

But I'd still be very interested in how many weapons were captured in the west.
Thanks for answering my questions.

[Poot]

Would you mind sharing your source for the Yugoslavian inventory? Is it from a pre-war inventory, or something conducted afterwards?
Thanks,
Pat

[CroGer]

Yugoslavian arsenal:

http://www.panzercentral.com/forum/view ... 34#p741848

The yoguslav's didn't have K98's as K98k's. They had predominantly M24-type Mausers, produced by FN, ZB, as well as license produced ones.
This article

https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0 ... %D0%9C1924

says that Yugoslavia had 780.000 M24, 100.000 bought from FN, and 680.000 produced by the Kragujevac arenal.

and this article
https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zastava_Arms

says that by 1928 the Zragujevac was able to produce 200 rifles per day.

This article

https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pu%C5%A1ka_vz._24

states that 10.000 Zb vz 24 were purchased by yugoslavia from Brno. Although "Mauser Rifles of the World" states that yugoslavia purchased 50.000 M24 in 1924 and 40.000 in 1926. So the 10.000 czech ones can be part of the 100.000 bought M24.

Like I said, this was meant to be updated frequently, especially the "Beutewaffen"-section, since the pre-war arsenal and what the axis has captured are two entirely different things, and you often find contradictory figures both on the internet and in books - hence "possibly".
Yet, I can't edit this thread anymore.

Edit: the premise of this thread was using "the collective intelligence" of the internet. Books about weapons of the world wars are expensive, and I can't spend thousands of € on books. So I have to rely on the knowledge of other users and use internet sources. Although you often find contradictory numbers.

For example
"Lexikon der Wehrmacht" gives different numbers on the MP40's produced in 1944 and 1945 than "Sturmgewehr!" by Hans-Dieter Handrich.

Example

Lexikon der Wehrmacht:
1944: 82.889
1945: 189

"Sturmgewehr!
1944: 228.582
1945: 85.689
With the stats on 1945 only going until march 45 and basically being estimated (Handdrich states that in Feb&Mar 45 the number of MP40 was 30.000 per month)
Handrich relys on "Rolf Wagenführer: Die deutsche Kriegsindustrie 1939-1945", while Lexikon der Wehrmacht quote from two different sources:

- Reiner Lidschun, Günter Wollert: Infanteriewaffen gestern (1918 - 1945). Illustrierte Enzyklopädie der Schützenwaffen aus aller Welt, Brandenburgisches Verlagshaus 1998
- Fritz Hahn: Waffen und Geheimwaffen des Deutschen Heeres 1933-1945, Bernard & Graefe Verlag 1998

[Poot]

After 1929, ALL Model 1924 Mauser (not VZ-24) rifles used by Yugoslavia were domestically produced. No other country produced the M1924CK, and the Yugoslavs also built the hybrid types later known as the M1899C, M1924b, M95M, M90T and M03T.

I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a 'source,' as there's virtually no vetting or peer review of any depth.

[CroGer]

After 1929, ALL Model 1924 Mauser (not VZ-24) rifles used by Yugoslavia were domestically produced. No other country produced the M1924CK, and the Yugoslavs also built the hybrid types later known as the M1899C, M1924b, M95M, M90T and M03T.

I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a 'source,' as there's virtually no vetting or peer review of any depth.

Wikipedia is a mixed bag.
The serbian article about the Kragejuvac Arsenal is actually pretty good. You'll find out that one of the reasons why the serbs produced the "Mauser-Koka", or specifically the Mauser-Milovanovic 1878/1880 was that in 1884 Wilhelm Mausers daughter Elisa married Kosta Milovanovic. Didn't know that.

The factory was closed in 1916, and picked up production in 1919. So what specifically was produced in that factory between 1919 and 1925?

Concerning the M24 the article says that, after 100.000 M24 rifles were bought, the license was purchased in 1925. So they produced the M24 from 1925/1926 on. By 1928 they produced 200 rifles per day, and then the production numbers expanded. The factory, according to this article, only stopped the production in June 1942, when the factory was dismantled.

The other article about the M24

https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0 ... %D0%9C1924

states that 100.000 were bought from belgium, and 680.000 additional M24 were produced in Kragujevac until 1941.

So here we have the first problem with the numbers and wikipedia as a source in general.
Did they produce 680.000 until the factory was closed, or until the invasion? Because if they kept producing for a full year before the factory was dismantled, they could have cranked out 100k more.
The article also says that those first 100K M24 were specifically from FN. So the czechoslovak rifles would increase the number.

Anyhow... There must be any source about how many "Beutewaffen", captured weapons the axis used. As far as I have looked into to, "Kennblätter fremden Geräts" doesn't have the numbers of those weapons in use & in arsenals.

[Poot]

Wikipedia is a mixed bag.

That's being very generous.

The best current source for the history of Yugoslav rifles from that period is Branko Bogdanovich. His books are still available, and they are based on period documents and data. You can use Wikipedia if you choose, but you'll be at the mercy of the contributors and their ability (or lack thereof) to ascertain facts and draw conclusions from primary sources. I'm not going to beat it to death, but garbage in generally results in garbage out.

For clarity, here's a summary of what Bogdanovich wrote regarding the beginning of domestic Model 1924 production. An agreement was made for FN to supply 100,000 rifles, 110,000,000 rounds of ammunition, plus the machinery and equipment to manufacture Model 1924 rifles. Installation and training of staff ran from 1925-1927. Prototype testing was completed by December 1927, and full production did not start until 28 October 1928. There was NO noted production in 1925/1926. Delays in production during 1928-1929 were due mainly to a lack of specified steels needed for the rifles. From then until the German invasion on 7 April 1941, approx. 1,000,000 Model 1924 rifles had been produced domestically.

When German forces seized the Uzice factory in April 1941, they found 15,000-20,000 barrels, along with other parts. German forces captured 250,000 Model 1924 rifles at Kragujevac that had been placed there in storage. Most seized arms and components were shipped off to German arms depots but some components remained in place at Uzice. Partisans who later captured the factory (to be re-captured by the Germans in December 1941) were able to assemble an estimated 15,000 rifles using Gewehr 98 parts and modified Model 1924 stocks. Beyond that, there was NO production of Yugoslav rifles after the German invasion, only assembly of parts into whole rifles. That's much different than manufacturing and producing rifles, and would obviously be limited only to the parts on hand.

[CroGer]

Wikipedia is a mixed bag.

That's being very generous.

The best current source for the history of Yugoslav rifles from that period is Branko Bogdanovich. His books are still available, and they are based on period documents and data. You can use Wikipedia if you choose, but you'll be at the mercy of the contributors and their ability (or lack thereof) to ascertain facts and draw conclusions from primary sources. I'm not going to beat it to death, but garbage in generally results in garbage out.

For clarity, here's a summary of what Bogdanovich wrote regarding the beginning of domestic Model 1924 production. An agreement was made for FN to supply 100,000 rifles, 110,000,000 rounds of ammunition, plus the machinery and equipment to manufacture Model 1924 rifles. Installation and training of staff ran from 1925-1927. Prototype testing was completed by December 1927, and full production did not start until 28 October 1928. There was NO noted production in 1925/1926. Delays in production during 1928-1929 were due mainly to a lack of specified steels needed for the rifles. From then until the German invasion on 7 April 1941, approx. 1,000,000 Model 1924 rifles had been produced domestically.

When German forces seized the Uzice factory in April 1941, they found 15,000-20,000 barrels, along with other parts. German forces captured 250,000 Model 1924 rifles at Kragujevac that had been placed there in storage. Most seized arms and components were shipped off to German arms depots but some components remained in place at Uzice. Partisans who later captured the factory (to be re-captured by the Germans in December 1941) were able to assemble an estimated 15,000 rifles using Gewehr 98 parts and modified Model 1924 stocks. Beyond that, there was NO production of Yugoslav rifles after the German invasion, only assembly of parts into whole rifles. That's much different than manufacturing and producing rifles, and would obviously be limited only to the parts on hand.

Alright, thank you!

[CroGer]

I've got the book "Fallschirmjägergewehr 42" from Handrich now.

There were three models of the FG42.

The FG42/1 had the angled grip. 2.000 were produced.
The FG42/2 (basically the trial version of the FG42/3): 250
FG42/3 (pistol grip, stamped components): 6.700 (production started in march 1945 only)

So overall ca. 7.000 FG42

The FG42/1 was significantly more expensive since it had a lot of milled components. Krieghoff botched the first batch.
The FG42/2&3 were simplified versions and allegedly wouldn't have been more time comsuming or expensive to make than the Stg.

Interestingly the FG42 is exactly the weapon the German Reichswehr wanted to have in the late 20's: both semi-auto & light machine gun, caliber 8x57, not much heavier than 4 kilos.

The predecessor was the Knorr-Bremse M35. Only 500 were produced, they were unreliable and only used in training.
Interestingly the swedes produced several thousands of these as the KG M/40. They were, too, unreliable and unpopular.

[sturmkapitan89]

any more info about machine guns used by the wehrmacht or even the waffen ss on the various fronts they fought on

[kfbr392]

Question: how many rifles did the austrian military have pre-Anschluß?

apparently around 308000 according to this source:
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/1938- ... ry.174339/