Best Barrel Available For The M/28-30?

[Hideyosho]

Hey there, this is my first thread (I think so, because I cannot remember having created one before, but I've been a devoted reader of some here).

I recently re-caught interest on the history of the Finnish Mosin family, and found out many interesting information that I wasn't aware of quite a time ago, say, for example, that the M/28-30's accuracy was higher than that of the M39's.

Since I've always been fond of snipers militaria, I focused on this point, and I found amazing the Finns had their rifles (M/28-30s) equipped with imported barrels, like those from SIG, Venuswaffenfabrik, and Roemerwerke.

Even domestic barrels seem to have been very good pieces, and in my opinion, those made from Swedish steel from the Fägestra company, seem to be best.

However, I might be wrong.

So I would like to know which were the strong and weak points of each type of barrel, to have a richer opinion in future discussions.

I can recall those made from SIG and Venuswaffenfabrik, and of course, domestic ones such as the ones from SAKO (made of Fägestra steel and Lokomo Steel Works steel) and Tikkakoski (made of Lokomo Steel Works steel I assume).

Any information will be of great use, thanks.

[JTV]

Hi Hideyosho. Nice to hear about your interest towards Finnish military rifles. No offense intended, but I find your approach on the matter somewhat beculiar. These are not brand-new rifles with brand-new barrels straight from the factory, but used military rifles whose mass-production ended 78 years ago. Grand majority of them saw a lot of service in World War 2 and often also served as training weapons for new conscripts after that, so the barrel condition varies considerably from one individual rifle to another. Hence the main thing for finding an individual rifle that is accurate as possible is finding a rifle which still have a very good barrel. In addition also rifle stock should in good shape and trigger crips (triggers tend to vary a bit from one indivual rifle to another). Since finding of m/30 rifle slings separately is somewhat difficult even in Finland, it is recommendable to try finding a rifle which already has it.

Also - the grand majority of m/28-30 rifles have Sako-manufactured barrels. The only exception to this are m/28 rifles upgraded to m/28-30 standard - they typically have either SIG or Tikkakoski manufactured barrels. VENUS Waffenfabrik Oscar Will, Zella Mehlis and RÖMERWERK A.G. supplied rifle barrels for m/24 infantry rifles, but not for m/28 or m/28-30.

M/28-30 rifles have slightly better accuracy potential than m/39, but on the other hand tend to have problems if attempted to use with surplus 7.62 x 54R ammunition. Sako designed m/28-30 with as much accuracy potential as possible (considering limitations of Mosin-Nagant action), hence m/28-30 ended up in some ways (*) being more of a target rifle, while m/39 is a sturdier design focused more heavily as weapon of war. The reasons for this slight neck in accuracy potential are:
1. Slightly heavier barrel.
2. Better rifle sling design (Civil Guard rifle sling m/30, which was an improved development likely based to US M1907 rifle sling).
3. Rifle stock tends to be bit lighter (particularly early version.
4. If you make your own ammunition m/28-30 bore works well with .308 bullets (slugging the bore highly recommended to find the exact bore measurement and finding optimal bullet diameter), which are obviously more commonly available. Optimal bullet weights are in 10 - 12 gram category with traditional Finnish favorite being D46 and more modern favorite being Scenar - both of them from Lapua.
http://www.lapua.com/en/reloading-compo ... llets.html

Both rifles have very precisely adjustable iron sights that allow them to zeroed in just right. For best accuracy try to avoid over-heating barrel (receiver design in somewhat flimsy and overheating is likely to cause wondering zero with it), old military rifle competitions here in Finland have have equal number of minutes for maximum shooting time as the total number of shots - allowing to maintain rate of fire as slow as almost 1 shot/minute.

(*) Mainly rifle stocks used in m/28-30 cannot take as much punishment as m/39 rifle stock and particularly handguard used in m/28-30 in quite fragile. Also m/30 rifle sling is a better design for shooting from prone or kneeling, but is not as versatile for carrying the rifle as sling system of rifle m/39.

Are you familiar with Mosinnagant.net? http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/default.asp

[Hideyosho]

Thank you for your reply JTV, it threw light over many things I didn't notice on so many articles (and most likely the reason I got some things mixed up).

By no means, for the moment, I can buy a rifle (or any firearm). I just don't have the money (I'm a third year university student living in Peru), and gun laws here are strict (but that doesn't discourage me from acquiring a Finn Mosin in the future).

It'd be fair to tell you that if I'm asking about the best barrel available for the M/28-30, it's because I want to work on a personal graphical project sometime soon, and perhaps on a novel (this one in the distant future most likely), so I wanted to push as far as I could the "luck-o-meter" to get the best Finnish sniper rifle the Continuation War could offer (a fancy way to say it I guess), of course, in somewhat reasonable quantities (knowing sniper variants were scarce).

I have on my "wishlist" of parts for this Mosin, the best barrel available (finalists were the SIG-made and the Fägestra steel SAKO-made), M/39 pistol grip stock (I'm aware there seem to have been M/28-30 actions and barrels fitted to these stocks, since I've seen a couple of them while doing my research), and an overbore PE scope. I also thought of the SAKO D108A bullet, which seems to have remained in production during that war, but in lesser quantities than before this conflict and Winter War.

Now that I know SAKO made the majority of barrels for the M/28-30, It seems logical to me to pick the Fägestra steel barrels (or perhaps the Lokomo steel ones, since it is said their quality was on par with the Swedish steel ones), or maybe I could choose a M/28-28/30 (SIG barrels and German firms barrels would be available despite the small number of converted rifles which, if I recall correctly was about 2000).

I try to stick to the M/28-30 platform because of the aluminum sleeve, which enhanced accuracy, but keeping a superb barrel (all of them were, but there's always a winner). Swiss barrels (SIG ones) are made of high-quality steel with a high percentage of nickel (I don't know the source of this steel), and feature precise rifling; Swedish steel (Fägestra) SAKO-made barrels are made of world-famous high-quality steel, and feature Swiss rifling (I cannot explain this totally, but it seems SAKO learned its know-how). As for German-made barrels, my information is almost non-existant (I only know they were reputed arms manufacturers, but I assume quality wasn't a problem if Krupp steel was used, and as for their rifling, nothing about it I could say to be honest).

Surely I could use Finnish steel domestic barrels, but that doesn't add to the "uncommon" part of it, despite their very good quality.

You mentioned the receiver and other parts were important if talking about the accuracy. I tried to be more specific on that, and also looked for the best receivers and bolts (planning to further expand my research to internal magazines and triggers), but it seemed like a nightmare to me to fit these parts into an specific Finnish Mosin model (and in reasonable quantities, so I don't end up with a one-of-a-kind rifle). It'd be great if someone could provide good examples of the best parts these Mosins could've ever get, or sources, so I can read more about them.

Sorry for the lenghty reply and if I put wrong information on this post (or even on this comment). I'm no firearms expert, and there's lots of information to make these kind of mistakes.

Cheers.

[JTV]

Ok. Although the best Finnish sniper rifle available during Continuation War would be sniper rifle m/39-43, which did not become available until late in the war. Neither m/28-30 or m/39 was intended as a sniper rifle, but due to shortage of proper sniper rifles equipped with scopes they often got pressed on that role during World War 2.

There was/is no known difference quality-wise in between various m/28-30 rifle barrels and there is also no known actual difference in between steel being in them performance-wise. There also was no official rifle model that would have combined m/28-30 barrel with m/39 rifle stock, since m/28-30 would be probably too thick to fit into m/39 stock - particularly with its nosecap. All rifles by default are design-wise compromises and soldiers normally did not get to select the rifle they wanted, much less to build one from their preferred parts. What they got was the weapon that was issued to them and tried to do their best with that they had.

Receivers and bolts were recycled parts from earlier Mosin-Nagant manufacturers. Only common Finnish-made bolt parts were extractor claws, while Sako also manufactured small number of safeties (rear part of bolt) for the bolts.

Finnish Mosin-Nagant rifles had quite a bit of fine tuning done for them when they were assembled - so assembling of rifles did take more than just selecting bunch of parts and putting them together. For example bolt bodies are not all the same exact standard lenght, due to which front section of bolt came in numerous slighly varying lenghts from which a craftman assembling rifles in factory or weapons depot would pick (and test) the correct one (which would produce correct headscape for ammunition). In addition bolt parts related to trigger had some variation, hence getting a good trigger required craftman with "an eye" for picking out flat spring that would work correct with it and if needed to adjust it. In addition rifle actions were often shimmed into rifle stock to improve accuracy potential, which also required pretty serious knowhow.

[Hideyosho]

Thanks again for replying JVT, your input is of great help for my project.

Here's what I think about what you said above:

Although the best Finnish sniper rifle available during Continuation War would be sniper rifle m/39-43, which did not become available until late in the war.

Yes, I'm aware the M/39-43 is regarded as the best sniper version, but I should've specified the rifle I had in mind cannot be used further than the North African Campaign (personal reasons).

Neither m/28-30 or m/39 was intended as a sniper rifle, but due to shortage of proper sniper rifles equipped with scopes they often got pressed on that role during World War 2.

Hmmm... As far as I know, there was some testing with the former using various scopes from Germany, but in the end, this was left, and as for the M39, I cannot tell you much, except the Finns got 500 scopes from the German firm Ajack (a purchase), and that some scopes captured from the Soviets (PEs, PEMs, and PUs) were fitted on the rifles (I think some M/28-30s might've got any of those, since almost no Finn soldier would hand captured scopes).

There was/is no known difference quality-wise in between various m/28-30 rifle barrels and there is also no known actual difference in between steel being in them performance-wise.

That eases things for me, if talking about quantities.

There also was no official rifle model that would have combined m/28-30 barrel with m/39 rifle stock, since m/28-30 would be probably too thick to fit into m/39 stock - particularly with its nosecap.

I'm aware measures of both rifle were different, so I assume those examples I saw online are rare pieces. Still, I think M/28-30s with broken stocks might've been given M39 ones (straight stocks were only used on first examples of this rifle), after having been reworked a little (seems possible, but I might be wrong).

All rifles by default are design-wise compromises and soldiers normally did not get to select the rifle they wanted, much less to build one from their preferred parts. What they got was the weapon that was issued to them and tried to do their best with that they had.

I know they were all issued a rifle, same as with any other soldier of other belligerent nations. I don't know about Finnish sniping doctrine at that time, only use of scopes was a trial and error effort, often with the cost of lost lives.

Receivers and bolts were recycled parts from earlier Mosin-Nagant manufacturers. Only common Finnish-made bolt parts were extractor claws, while Sako also manufactured small number of safeties (rear part of bolt) for the bolts.

I was somewhat aware of that, and one can see the weight of such a decision, which is cost saving, and taking advantage of the large stockpile of old Mosins. I also read oonce they developed a new type of sling, one of a kind, which allowed faster rifle acquisition, which had two belts (if I recall correctly), I think, near the end of the war (It'd be great if someone could provide some information about this), same as with other slings made of synthetic materials, other than canvas (the Germans did some experimenting with such type of slings too).

Finnish Mosin-Nagant rifles had quite a bit of fine tuning done for them when they were assembled - so assembling of rifles did take more than just selecting bunch of parts and putting them together. For example bolt bodies are not all the same exact standard lenght, due to which front section of bolt came in numerous slighly varying lenghts from which a craftman assembling rifles in factory or weapons depot would pick (and test) the correct one (which would produce correct headscape for ammunition).

Do you know about other types of minor adjustments they did to these rifles? Were all meant to "standarize" all of them? Or maybe are we talking about tuning for accuracy? I wonder if sniper-issued rifles had other adjustments (as I said before, I don't know anything about Finnish snipers' doctrine).

In addition bolt parts related to trigger had some variation, hence getting a good trigger required craftman with "an eye" for picking out flat spring that would work correct with it and if needed to adjust it. In addition rifle actions were often shimmed into rifle stock to improve accuracy potential, which also required pretty serious knowhow.

That sounds very interesting, and sounds pretty logical, knowing manufacturing these rifles wasn't specifically cheap. About shimmed actions, I must say that's new to me, and again, it'd be great to know more about these modifications meant to improve the rifles' performance.

As a bonus, I'd like to know about the D108A bullet (I've read some useful information about the D46, D47, D101A, D105A, but I was unclucky so far to not find any about D108A), and if Finland went ahead with scope reticles development (I know they only designed and made one, used on the Physica PH scope); I know they only used captured scopes, aside from those purchased to Ajack, and the copy they developed near the end of the war.

Cheers.

[JTV]

Yes, I'm aware the M/39-43 is regarded as the best sniper version, but I should've specified the rifle I had in mind cannot be used further than the North African Campaign (personal reasons).

Ok. Although historically Finnish rifles did not see use beyond Finnish - Soviet front. The only exception is some Soviet documents suggesting that number of Finnish rifles that the Soviets had captured during Winter War may have been issued among other mixed weapons to Moscow militia in year 1941.

Hmmm... As far as I know, there was some testing with the former using various scopes from Germany, but in the end, this was left, and as for the M39, I cannot tell you much, except the Finns got 500 scopes from the German firm Ajack (a purchase), and that some scopes captured from the Soviets (PEs, PEMs, and PUs) were fitted on the rifles (I think some M/28-30s might've got any of those, since almost no Finn soldier would hand captured scopes).

Let me rephrase that: Both m/28-30 or m/39 were military rifles intended to be issued for common soldiers. Finnish Army had very little rifle scopes when Winter War started and acquiring them proved highly problematic. Since there were no rifle scopes available, Finnish snipers ended up often getting m/28-30 or m/39 equipped only with their normal iron sights issued to them as replacement.

I'm aware measures of both rifle were different, so I assume those examples I saw online are rare pieces. Still, I think M/28-30s with broken stocks might've been given M39 ones (straight stocks were only used on first examples of this rifle), after having been reworked a little (seems possible, but I might be wrong).

That is one plausible possibility. There are numerous known examples of non-standard rifles and not all of them done my Finnish military. Quite a lot of old military rifles sold to civilian market later got their rifle stocks chopped up by their new owners. Unissued M/28-30 rifle stocks have not been available for a very long time, while unissued m/39 rifle stocks are still available here.

I also read once they developed a new type of sling, one of a kind, which allowed faster rifle acquisition, which had two belts (if I recall correctly), I think, near the end of the war (It'd be great if someone could provide some information about this), same as with other slings made of synthetic materials, other than canvas (the Germans did some experimenting with such type of slings too).

That sounds like there may have a misunderstanding of some sort. The basic sling design that Finnish military issued to basically all Mosin-Nagant rifles that had slign slots had small leather loops (sometimes referred as "dog collars") in each end of actual rifle sling. However this slign design did not make rifle acquisition any faster nor was it really that unique. World War 2 caused shortage of many raw materials for Finnish industry. One of these raw materials was leather - hence canvas rifle slings were introduced to save leather for items for which it was vital. As a sidenote particular canvas slings still have leather reinforcements in parts in which it is necessary.

Do you know about other types of minor adjustments they did to these rifles? Were all meant to "standarize" all of them? Or maybe are we talking about tuning for accuracy? I wonder if sniper-issued rifles had other adjustments (as I said before, I don't know anything about Finnish snipers' doctrine).

Rifles were tuned for two purposes: To make shooting them well easier (triggers) or to improve accuracy (shims in between stock and receiver). It is known that m/39 military rifles selected to become m/39-43 sniper rifles (in other words: to be equipped with 4 x 38 Ajack rifle scopes) had select rifle barrels that had been pulled from production line after showing exceptional accuracy when test-fired as part of production process. Unfortunately there is no information if a similar process was applied also to other World War 2 era sniper rifle models such as m/27 PH, m/39 PH or m/39 SOV.

As a bonus, I'd like to know about the D108A bullet (I've read some useful information about the D46, D47, D101A, D105A, but I was unclucky so far to not find any about D108A), and if Finland went ahead with scope reticles development (I know they only designed and made one, used on the Physica PH scope); I know they only used captured scopes, aside from those purchased to Ajack, and the copy they developed near the end of the war.)

D 108A was the final full metal jacket boat-tail bullet development of Sako factory. It was introduced to production in year 1936 and soon gained reputation of exceptional accuracy. Sako delivered several million rounds loaded with it to Civil Guard in next few years. Compared to earlier Sako's FMJBT bullet designs it had new cannelure design and tail section of bullet was more rounded than before. The bullet weight 12 grams / 185 grains, it was 33.0 mm long and had iameter varying in between 7.84 - 7.86 mm. As typical to Finnish bullets of the time it was lead bullet with tompac (copper-zinc alloy) jacket. Ammunition manufactured with D 108 A was loaded with 2.75 - 2.80 grams of Valtion Ruutitehdas (State Gunpowder Factory) "L17" gun powder. Sako manufactured about 17.6 million rounds of ammunition with D 108 A in 1938 - 1939.

Physica's reticle was somewhat unusual in that sense that it had ranging function of sort with upper torso silhuettes from various ranges marked on reticle, but then again Physica was sort of universal sight intended also for heavy machine guns. All other Finnish issued rifle scopes had standard reticle of the time - the reticle design nowadays often referred as "German number 1".

[Hideyosho]

JTV, thank you again for the information you provided. It certainly helped me clear many doubts I had, and correct some stuff I got wrong during my research (I might go further so I can clear the data about that unique sling I read of a time ago).

As I told you, I'm fond of snipers, and of that time specially, so it strikes me as a bit surprising why did the lighter D105A bullet wasn't produced during both wars, despite I get the D108A was the end of the line of SAKO bullets of the time.

It also had me a bit intrigued how did the Finns managed to install Smyrna-type mounts (both captured and copies) without eliminating the advantage of the well-known open sights (I know the Soviets made "tunnels" through them so their closed sights could be used in an emergency). Did they come up with a solution for this issue, if it ever was one?

Finally, I read that sometime during the war, the Finns sold M39s to the Germans. Could you tell me about these specific rifles (chambering, stocks, and so on)? I only recall they weren't that many.

Again, thank you, and maybe I'll see you on further posts related to Finnish small arms here.

Cheers.

[JTV]

As I told you, I'm fond of snipers, and of that time specially, so it strikes me as a bit surprising why did the lighter D105A bullet wasn't produced during both wars, despite I get the D108A was the end of the line of SAKO bullets of the time.

Finnish Army had introduced 7.62 x 53R standard cartridge type with (13-gram/200-grain) D166 in year 1936 and during World War 2 was doing its best to standardize its rifles for that cartridge with D-chamber modification. While ammunition with older bullet designs was also available for rifles which were not compatible (read: ammunition loaded with it would not chamber in them) with D166 bullet, putting them back to production would have complicated supply situation. Besides - Sako's wartime ammunition production concentrated into manufacturing of 9 mm x 19 Parabellum/Luger ammunition for sub machineguns.

It also had me a bit intrigued how did the Finns managed to install Smyrna-type mounts (both captured and copies) without eliminating the advantage of the well-known open sights (I know the Soviets made "tunnels" through them so their closed sights could be used in an emergency). Did they come up with a solution for this issue, if it ever was one?

Sorry - I cannot really say anything reliable about that. I did a bit of shooting with m/39-43 years back, but I don't recall if using iron sights would have been possible when the scope was attached to rifle.

Finally, I read that sometime during the war, the Finns sold M39s to the Germans. Could you tell me about these specific rifles (chambering, stocks, and so on)? I only recall they weren't that many.

I can tell you that there were none. Finland never sold m/39 rifles to any foreign government or military. Also German standard cartridge was 7.92 mm x 57 IS and they were not buying 7.62 x 53R caliber rifles from anybody. On the contrary - Finland bought captured Russian/Soviet Mosin-Nagant rifles from Germany in several occasions - first about 87,000 rifles in year 1918, then unknown number in deals made with Oy Transbaltic Ab in 1920's & 1930's and finally 56,722 rifles (grand majority of them m/91-30) in summer of 1944.

[Hideyosho]

Hello there JTV, and again, thank you for replying.

I get the idea the Finns wanteed the D166 to be standarized, thought it's clear, at least to me, the Civil Guard kept using those match bullets (D46, D108A), and from what I read, a regular Finnish sniper could pick the amunition which best suited his needs at the battlefield.

I know VKT produced 200 copies of that mount more or less, and it might be possible that, aside from the 4 screws modification, a wider tunneling for iron sights use might've been applied, despite the evidence someone can get online is that no changes were made to this.

And thanks for the clarification on the German "use" of the Finnish Mosins, it must've been a misunderstanding of mine.

Cheers.

[JTV]

Hello there JTV, and again, thank you for replying.

I get the idea the Finns wanteed the D166 to be standarized, thought it's clear, at least to me, the Civil Guard kept using those match bullets (D46, D108A), and from what I read, a regular Finnish sniper could pick the amunition which best suited his needs at the battlefield.

What is known presumably this was usually the case.

Jarkko

[Hideyosho]

Thank you for all the information Jarko, it's been of great help. I think there's nothing more to add, and unless I had any doubt, I'll post it in another thread.

Cheers.