Pistol-Gripped Carcanos?

[Hideyosho]

Hello there, haven't posted here in a while, AFAIK.

Just one quick question: Did Italy experimented with, or perhaps even issued pistol-gripped Carcano rifles? It looked like a growing trend in many armies during WW2, and even some rifles had pistol grips during WW1. My knowledge about Carcanos is very very limited, so any people keen on them perhaps could help me.

Basically, that would be it.

Cheers.

[peeved]

The only one I know of is the Carcano with Mauser type magazine for the Japanese Imperial Navy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_Rifle

Markus

[Poot]

Hideyosho,
There were no pistol grip Carcano rifles or carbines. They were all made with straight wrist stocks, or at the most, what is typically called a 'semi-pistol grip' stock like the Type I. None of those are true pistol grips, though.

A pistol grip on a bolt action rifle makes no sense, either. It would only delay the control hand moving to the bolt to cycle the action after each shot. The straight stock design offers a bit of an advantage in that regard but either way, the control hand needs to move to the bolt.

[Hideyosho]

Hideyosho,
There were no pistol grip Carcano rifles or carbines. They were all made with straight wrist stocks, or at the most, what is typically called a 'semi-pistol grip' stock like the Type I. None of those are true pistol grips, though.

A pistol grip on a bolt action rifle makes no sense, either. It would only delay the control hand moving to the bolt to cycle the action after each shot. The straight stock design offers a bit of an advantage in that regard but either way, the control hand needs to move to the bolt.

Thanks for replying Poot, appreciate it, and sorry for the late reply.

Based on how you worded it above, I assume there were trials or limited issue of semi-pistol grip Carcani (I already knew of Type I, so I'm not taking it into account, since, I assume, hasn't seen any service with the Italians). Is that correct?

It seems to me a little weird the Italians haven't thought of re-stocking WW1-dated Carcani with new types of stock, having seen interesting models coming from the experimental semi-automatic rifles from Pavesi and the Armaguerra.

Cheers.

[Poot]

I think the confusion lies in the term 'semi pistol grip.' It really has nothing to do with a pistol grip, and should probably be referred to as something else. I wasn't implying there were experimental types with pistol grips, but some grips had more of a sweep to them than the straighter grips. By no means does that make any of them 'pistol grips,' though.

[Hideyosho]

I think the confusion lies in the term 'semi pistol grip.' It really has nothing to do with a pistol grip, and should probably be referred to as something else. I wasn't implying there were experimental types with pistol grips, but some grips had more of a sweep to them than the straighter grips. By no means does that make any of them 'pistol grips,' though.

I think I should've called them pistol-grip stocks and semi pistol-grip stocks, since what I said before could mislead people to think about "grips", used on some sub machineguns (and that certain rifles sported similar ones, but very few examples AFAIK).

It's interesting you mention there were some grips which were swept (cannot imagine how much, but it couldn't have been more than a Mannlicher M1895). Do you know of any examples?

Cheers.

[Poot]

A Google image search for 'Carcano rifle' will show you plenty of examples of the 'straight stock' seen on Carcanos. Beyond that, refer to:

1.) Riepe, Wolfgang 'Il Novantuno Mannlicher-Carcano: das italienische Waffensystem Modell 1891 ; Geschichte und Beschreibung der Carcano-Gewehre und Karabiner M 91.'
2.) Riccio, Raphael 'Italian Small Arms of the First and Second World Wars.'
3.) Arendel, Russ and Woodrum, Steve 'Italy's Battle Rifle: The story of the Mannlicher-Carcano Series of Rifles.'
4.) Chegia, Giovanni and Simonelli, Alberto 'The Model 1891 Carcano Rifle: A Detailed Developmental and Production History.'

[Hideyosho]

A Google image search for 'Carcano rifle' will show you plenty of examples of the 'straight stock' seen on Carcanos. Beyond that, refer to:

1.) Riepe, Wolfgang 'Il Novantuno Mannlicher-Carcano: das italienische Waffensystem Modell 1891 ; Geschichte und Beschreibung der Carcano-Gewehre und Karabiner M 91.'
2.) Riccio, Raphael 'Italian Small Arms of the First and Second World Wars.'
3.) Arendel, Russ and Woodrum, Steve 'Italy's Battle Rifle: The story of the Mannlicher-Carcano Series of Rifles.'
4.) Chegia, Giovanni and Simonelli, Alberto 'The Model 1891 Carcano Rifle: A Detailed Developmental and Production History.'

Thanks for the references, I'll try to acquire them as soon as I have the money (I'm about to buy Clive Law's Without Warning).

No signals of semi-pistol-gripped Carcani so far, aside from the Type I... So I assume they didn't contemplate a new sotck design, or perhaps some experimenting has been done.

On a side note... Do you know perhaps about written sources for WW2 Italian optics and sniper rifles? I recently created a thread in case anyone knew something about them, but no luck so far. I know it's a little-known aspect of Italian equipment, but I'm truly interested.

Cheers.