To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
Damper
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To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by Damper » 06 Dec 2017 11:39

Recently I watched a video on YouTube reviewing a book detailing how Germany utilised Captured Weaponry during the War.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1ER5J4dXO0

I was curious as to what extent Germany manufactured ammunition for captured weapons systems, or what efforts they made to secure a supply of ammunition, e.g. did they source Russian ammunition from factories in Finland?.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Dec 2017 12:14

If I remember rightly, the German rifle round was the same as the Czechs' and other central Europeans using Czech weaponry, such as the Yugoslavs, so they didn't have to produce rounds for a significant proportion of captured small arms. This enabled them to equip such formations as the 7th and 8th W-SS Divisions largely with Czech small arms. I believe these two divisions also received Czech 4.7cm anti-tank guns built under German rule.

Furthermore, as they took over the Skoda arms factories intact, they could continue to produce Czech artillery rounds for as long as they wished, which meant they could potentially supply all the ex-Austro-Hungarian artillery still in service in that country's successor states.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Poot
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Re: To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by Poot » 06 Dec 2017 23:22

The short answer is, 'It depends on the weapons system.'

Taking only rifles/carbines chambered in 7.92X57mm as an example, the Germans had access to massive quantities of compatible, captured ammunition from Czechoslovakia, Greece and Yugoslavia. Some of this was earmarked only for practice and training, while others apparently received standard distribution.

Other foreign weapons were certainly supplied from new production, like 6.5X53R mm Dutch Mannlichers. FN in occupied Belgium produced 6.5 ammunition for the Wehrmacht, which used captured Dutch small arms for second and third line units, and apparently some combat units at the end of the war.
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kladinovi
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Re: To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by kladinovi » 31 May 2019 20:59

i think it depended on the need of the weapon or weapon type they even wanted to get their hands on Austro Hungarian Skoda siege mortars and for that they definetly needed ammo

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Poot
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Re: To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by Poot » 01 Jun 2019 17:32

Those are heavy ordnance, though. The focus here is on small arms, but your point remains valid. Germany either continued production of calibers needed, or relied on vast stocks of captured ammunition, as they did with Belgian Mauser rifles, Mosin-Nagant rifles, et al.
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kladinovi
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Re: To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by kladinovi » 01 Jun 2019 21:57

there is this odd ammo called 7,63x25 Mauser which was used in the broomhandle Mauser which mabye i am not sure could have made an easy replacement ammo for ppsh´s and pps´s but i dont know if it fits

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Poot
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Re: To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by Poot » 02 Jun 2019 03:35

Dimensionally it will fit fine, and vice-versa. It will chamber, fire, extract and eject the same as a 7.62X25 Tokarev. The difference comes in the variable pressures to which the latter cartridge was produced. The reason is 7.62 Tokarev cartridges eventually came to be loaded 'hotter' in some cases, and with SMGs in mind. In short, you can use a 7.63 Mauser round without issue in a firearm chambered in 7.62 Tokarev, but due to the variances in pressure in the latter cartridge, it's not always advisable to do it the other way around.

When I shot a fully automatic PPSh-41, I used 1950s Romanian 7.62 without a problem.

Pat
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T. A. Gardner
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Re: To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by T. A. Gardner » 04 Jun 2019 04:10

Well, the Germans produced at least 100,000 rounds of British 3.7" AA ammunition for captured 3.7" QF Mk I, II, and III guns they had in their inventory. They also copied the Russian 120mm mortar and the bombs they produced could be used in the Russian piece too.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Jun 2019 10:23

Hi Guys,

Kesselring, in his memoirs, states that his intention for 1945 was that the Italian theatre should become almost self sufficient by using Italian heavy industry (most of which was in Northern Italy, still behind German lines).

How far this was achieved I do not know.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Sheldrake
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Re: To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by Sheldrake » 07 Jun 2019 12:18

Damper wrote:
06 Dec 2017 11:39
Recently I watched a video on YouTube reviewing a book detailing how Germany utilised Captured Weaponry during the War.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1ER5J4dXO0

I was curious as to what extent Germany manufactured ammunition for captured weapons systems, or what efforts they made to secure a supply of ammunition, e.g. did they source Russian ammunition from factories in Finland?.
The problem with manufacturing ammunition for captured weapons is that it complicates logistics and training and reduces operational flexibility. The 7th Army in Normandy used 14 (+?) types of field artillery with incompatible ammunition.

Some booty weapons deployed in static defences might have only had limited stocks of ammunition.

kladinovi
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Re: To what extent did the Germans produce ammunition for captured Weapon systems

Post by kladinovi » 08 Jun 2019 10:18

sometimes they rebarreled the captured weapons to form own weapons types

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