Was there much wartime use of C96 "schnellfeuer" pistols in Europe?

[Hayes]

I know these machine-pistols were quite popular in China during the war. But I'd like to know if any were used by belligerent forces (or even paramilitaries or partisans) in Europe during WWII?

[Hans1906]

Hayes,

please limit your request to the Mauser M712 model.

The Mauser M712 was/is the in-line fire variant of the Mauser model C96. (Reihenfeuervariante)
Wikipedia / German: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_M712

Video:
Mauser "Schnellfeuer" / "Reihenfeuer" Model 712


A "nasty" little bastard of a pistol, with an extremly high rate of fire used in full-auto...


Hans

P.S. The full-auto version is illegal to own in Germany nowadays, you need a special permit for private possession of such a fully automatic weapon, in any caliber.

[Hans1906]

Addendum:

Such permits were granted decades ago only after intensive examination of the inquirers.
The reasons are manifold, the details would lead too far here in this topic, sorry.


Hans

[Hayes]

Sorry Hans, but it sounds like you misunderstood my question. I'm not interested if they're around in Europe today, I was asking if machine-pistol derivatives of the C96 were used during the war.

[Hans1906]

Eine kleine Stückzahl ging an Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe und SS. /A small number of pieces went to the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and SS.

Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_M712

Yes, so what is your question ?


Hans

[Hans1906]

I have only once seen an M712 with a Waffen-SS acceptance stamp, that was decades ago, this pistol had been privately acquired by a fellow collector.

Very definitely one of the rarest pistols of the time, offered at an extremely high price, if at all.


Hans

P.S. In a reference to these weapons, it would be useful to please refer exclusively to the original German designations, anything else for only further confuse such a topic.

[Hans1906]

In Germany, the "Kriegswaffenkontrollgesetz" (KrWaffKontrG) is active.

Gesetz über die Kontrolle von Kriegswaffen https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_üb ... iegswaffen

Without this legal restriction, hundreds or thousands of crazy idiots would be running around with such weapons here, just like in the USA.

On the other hand, the German law is a modern joke, for much less than 1000,- Euro, a Kalashnikov from Yugoslavian
production, can be bought for almost small change, everywhere, with ammunition in any quantity.
A paradise for terrorists, welcome to the modern Germany! :roll:


Hans

[Hans1906]

Hans

* Of course, each of us speaks against such a weapon in the own house, understandable.
But the true reality is a different world, it is all about money...

The eternal plague of our human existence.

[Poot]

I know these machine-pistols were quite popular in China during the war. But I'd like to know if any were used by belligerent forces (or even paramilitaries or partisans) in Europe during WWII?

Hayes,
I'll try and provide an on-topic answer to your simple question. Correct, there are some surviving photos of these pistols in use in mainland China in the 1940s, by either Nationalist or communist forces.

Aside from the photo of the Waffen-SS soldier using one in what appears to be an early Barbarossa photo, I can think of only a few other photos that show them. All are early war photos, and all in German use. The drawbacks to using a pistol or pistol caliber weapon when a 'long gun' is called for are well known to people who are experienced shooters, or have carried guns for a living. Having a longer barrel and a shoulder stock doesn't qualitatively add anything past a certain range. The development and production of increasingly advanced long guns with higher rates of fire and more appropriate calibers and features made the C96 and its variants more obvious as outdated niche weapons that no longer had a viable place on the battlefield.

I've not seen any photographic evidence of these weapons in use by other European Axis or co-belligerent forces, but there might be some out there. The fact that they're not well represented in the photographic record is what's referred to as a 'clue.'

Pat

[Hayes]

I know these machine-pistols were quite popular in China during the war. But I'd like to know if any were used by belligerent forces (or even paramilitaries or partisans) in Europe during WWII?

Hayes,
I'll try and provide an on-topic answer to your simple question. Correct, there are some surviving photos of these pistols in use in mainland China in the 1940s, by either Nationalist or communist forces.

Aside from the photo of the Waffen-SS soldier using one in what appears to be an early Barbarossa photo, I can think of only a few other photos that show them. All are early war photos, and all in German use. The drawbacks to using a pistol or pistol caliber weapon when a 'long gun' is called for are well known to people who are experienced shooters, or have carried guns for a living. Having a longer barrel and a shoulder stock doesn't qualitatively add anything past a certain range. The development and production of increasingly advanced long guns with higher rates of fire and more appropriate calibers and features made the C96 and its variants more obvious as outdated niche weapons that no longer had a viable place on the battlefield.

I've not seen any photographic evidence of these weapons in use by other European Axis or co-belligerent forces, but there might be some out there. The fact that they're not well represented in the photographic record is what's referred to as a 'clue.'

Pat

Thank you Pat for the straightforward reply. In response to your comments re: the practicality of machine-pistols in combat, I certainly am not under any illusions about this. I just know that, regardless of effectiveness, they occasionally did see combat during the interwar and WWII era in different parts of the globe, so I wondered whether any got caught up in Europe's largest conflict to date. Do you know any context to the other photos you mentioned seeing of C96 machine-pistol derivatives in German service? It would be interesting to hear.

[Poot]

I'll try and answer, but please bear in mind that I've only seen a few photos of them in German (and not other Axis) service. I've seen one of a Heer soldier in what is said to be Stalingrad, but it was holstered if I'm remembering it clearly. The other Waffen-SS photos might even be of the same soldier shown above, rather than different soldiers in different places/years.

Best,
Pat

[Hans1906]

The Mauser M712 is the in-line fire variant of the Mauser model C96.

It was manufactured from 1932 until 1936. It was developed in 1931/32 from the Mauser M711 rapid-fire pistol and was a reaction to Spanish counterfeits, which also had an interchangeable magazine. Externally, it is a Mauser model C96 with in-line firing mechanism and 10- or 20-round interchangeable magazine.

The still ongoing watering down of both pistols borders on plain ignorance.

I've seen it myself, how 10 to 12 rounds rushed out of an M712 in a split second, in the blink of an eye.
It was very lucky, that no one was killed at that time, the person with the gun in his hand was a schoolmate, he was sitting at a kitchen table, handling the gun around, and then suddenly there was a bang.

Fully automatic weapons were, and are bad in the hands of amateurs, period!


Hans

P.S. I would bet my German ass, that such a thing would still be possible today, if some stupid idiots would come into the possession of such a pistol...

[mikel]

I owned a souvenir example back in the 60s in the US.
Not actually legal, but lot of that type stuff existed back in those days.
Absolutely insane to fire one without the stock.
With the stock, you wondered, "just exactly what were they thinking?"
Reasonably accurate with stock in semi auto mode for whatever that is worth.
30 or so years ago, a quantity of them were discovered in Europe and the upper sections were imported, while the lower with the selector goodies were discarded.