Not another MP44/AK47 story?!

kamehouse · Post by **kamehouse** » 31 Jan 2007 16:01

Before i have all respected members of this forum telling me off and use the search option,
Can i just say i know the differences of the two weapons by having read some of the topics in this forum.
Now my problem is this:
I try to persuade a member of another forum who is adamant they are related.
I showed him a link(from this forum) to prove my point but he just discard it as a piece of junk,saying his sources are more relevant than a"message board"(i felt quite upset by this person)
His "sources" are this:
http://www.wwiiguns.com/shop/products.php?p=acc9a9
http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstre ... -3,00.html
Both seems to me limited and not really relevant.
What kind of links do you recommend me to show him he is an idiot and should be a bit more open minded?
Any comments about the field and stream article?

Best regards and thank for your help.
K

gavmeister13 · Post by **gavmeister13** » 01 Feb 2007 14:12

I've used the forum to sort out disagreements between my friends and myself <usually not war related>and they tend to accept it as there as so many people here that it is likely someone knows the answer first hand. The forum becomes even more relevent when it comes to war as that is it's main purpose. I'd point out to him that there are thousands of members here so there is likely to be debates and finally the right answer will come out. anyone fool can make a website with incorrect information on it. It seems your friend doesnt know his arse from his elbow re:MP44 and is just going to cling to his opinion and disregard anything that contradicts it. There's not much you can do really.

kamehouse · Post by **kamehouse** » 01 Feb 2007 20:35

Ouch i was afraid of that.
I did mention te 19000+ members of this forum though but Field&stream

seemed more relevant to him anyway.
No hope then for this poor guy.
If in case anybody have some links with some interviews from Kalashnikov(for instance) denying the parenting of the two assault rifles,i would really be grateful.
Thanks and regards,
K

yabint · Post by **yabint** » 01 Feb 2007 20:37

gavmeister13 wrote: There's not much you can do really.

Gav pretty much sums it up. Especially considering one of his reference sites http://www.wwiiguns.com is considered a fraudulant business amongst airsofters. And the second site supports the view that the AK-47 is a collection of concepts from several different rifles.

Tony Williams · Post by **Tony Williams** » 04 Feb 2007 13:42

This is what I put in THIS article on my website:

"There is still some sensitivity about the connection between the AK and the StG 44, but two things are clear; despite the apparent similarity, the AK was not a direct copy as it uses a quite different mechanism, but on the other hand Kalashnikov and his team must have known about the StG 44 (tens of thousands must have been captured) and it is difficult to believe that they were not influenced by it, even if only to take it as a starting point for improvement.

The 7.62x39 cartridge, however, was definitely inspired by the German 7.92x33; examples of the Mkb42(H) carbine and its ammunition were examined by a Technical Council in July 1943 and the OKB-44 design bureau was given the job of producing a round of similar but superior characteristics, quickly coming up with the M1943."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Pax Melmacia · Post by **Pax Melmacia** » 05 Feb 2007 05:32

I used to make that AK/MP44 connection, until someone pointed out that the latter reminds him more of the early Heckler & Koch designs. I guess that would make more sense.

BTW I heard that one problem with the MP44 was that it could not be detail-stripped in the field. It had to go 'back to the shop'. Any truth in this?

kamehouse · Post by **kamehouse** » 05 Feb 2007 22:23

@Tony:
Thanks for the website i put it on my favorites.
I'll send it to this guy but i don't have much hope.
Thanks(again) and regards,
K
P.S:
There's no mention of the Fusil d'Assault de la Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-etienne(A.K.A FAMAS) i thought it was a quite good (but expensive) assault rifle?

Baltas · Post by **Baltas** » 06 Feb 2007 20:44

Tony Williams wrote:The 7.62x39 cartridge, however, was definitely inspired by the German 7.92x33; examples of the Mkb42(H) carbine and its ammunition were examined by a Technical Council in July 1943 and the OKB-44 design bureau was given the job of producing a round of similar but superior characteristics, quickly coming up with the M1943." but Finnish source have another opinion.

The Russian M-43 cartridge was NOT YET designed by the idea of "Old Guru" Vladimir G. Fyodorov. It was NOT design of MIKHAIL T. KALASHNIKOV, but two noted Soviet military cartridge designers YELISAROV (name often mis-spelt as "Elisarov") and BORIS SYEMIN. M.T. Kalashnikov designed just a family of firearms around already existing cartridge 7.62-mm M-43. It was NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.
source:http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA4.html.
Regard Baltas

Tony Williams · Post by **Tony Williams** » 07 Feb 2007 07:03

Baltas wrote: The Russian M-43 cartridge was NOT YET designed by the idea of "Old Guru" Vladimir G. Fyodorov. It was NOT design of MIKHAIL T. KALASHNIKOV, but two noted Soviet military cartridge designers YELISAROV (name often mis-spelt as "Elisarov") and BORIS SYEMIN.

I never suggested that the cartridge was designed by Kalashnikov, because I know it wasn't.

It was NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.

I didn't say that the M1943 was a copy of the 7.92x33, because I know it wasn't - it is shorter and fatter. I said it was "inspired by the German 7.92x33", which is not the same thing at all.

My sources of information on the 7.62x39 M1943 seem to be better than yours, and they make it clear that this round was not a clone of anything.

I have a translation of a Russian history of the 7.62mm M1943 round by Bortsov, Korablin, Lovi and Sazanov. They clearly had access to official documents when researching the history, and say the following:

"The immediate spur for the development of the new round was a meeting of the Technical Council of the People's Commissariat for Armament (NKV) held on 15 July (1943) on the topic 'New foreign weapons firing lower-powered rounds'. Those attending the meeting were shown trophy weapons captured form the Nazis at the front, as well as an American M1 Carbine that had been made available to the USSR for examination. The authors have been unable to find reliable information as to whether the USSR had any previous knowledge of the development of intermediate rounds in the West. The experts were particularly interested in the new German 7.92mm round with its 33mm case and the accompanying MKb42(H) carbine, which had undergone trials in the field army....Those attending the meeting...correctly judged the importance of the new German personal automatic small arms system...The meeting decided that a new reduced power round must be developed....The OKB-44 design bureau was given responsibility for developing the new round.."

As far as the Geco cartridge used in the Vollmer M1935 is concerned, this is dealt with in "Assault Rifle Ammunition 5.6mm to 11mm Calibre" by Peter Labbett, a specialist military ammunition historian. This was a 7.75x40 round based on the 7.92x57 case, and was therefore fatter than the 7.62x39 (11.9mm diameter rather than 11.3mm). So the Russian cartridge was not a clone of that.

Labbett goes on to describe two other Geco rounds: one from the 1930s was attributed to Winter, but this measured 7.9x33.5mm so again was different from the M1943. The final Geco round sometimes quoted as the origin of the M1943 is the 7.62x39 Mittelpatrone, which sounds as if it might be the same - except that it is also 11.9mm in diameter and, according to Dynamit Nobel (Geco's postwar parent company), dates from 1960.

So, there is no known German cartridge of which the 7.62x39 M1943 could have been a copy.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Baltas · Post by **Baltas** » 13 Feb 2007 19:56

Thank you Tony for your post but I'd like return to AK47.
I think it was made by Hugo Schmeisser it was logical improvement of MP44.

Captured in 1945, traded to the Russians who he claimed made him participate in the development of their AK-47. Mikhail Kalashnikov denied any foreign influence on his designs, Schmeisser said he gave them "ideas." Soviet prisoner 1945-1952, the East Germans claimed Hugo died of pneumonia in 1953.10785 sheets of technical designs were confiscated by the Soviets as part of their research. In October 1945 Hugo Schmeisser was forced to work for the Red Army and instructed to continue development of new weapons.

Schmeisser's brilliance continued to impress the Red Army, and he, along with other weapons designers and their families, was relocated to the USSR. On October 24, 1946 The German specialists rode a train to Izhevsk in the southern Ural Mountains, where a center of Russian firearms development was located. Hugo Schmeisser's work while in the Red Army in Izhevsk (1946-1952) is shrouded in darkness. Little is known of his life during this period, until 1952 when he and other German specialists returned home to Germany. With short notice, his stay in the Soviet Union was extended beyond that of the other weapon specialists by a half year.

And now about rotating AK47 bolt from Russian site "But to the perfection it was made by Germans on the aircraft machine guns (guns) Mg -151 and the automatic carbine Fg-42, and already then it borrowed many our.And at last trigger mechanisms AK-47"and MP43 are identical "
source:http://trench.nnm.ru/rozhdenie_luchshego_druga

Regard Baltas

Kocur · Post by **Kocur** » 16 Feb 2007 11:21

Oh dear.
Apart from intermediate cartridge, gas operation, basic idea of trigger mechanism, taken from John Moses Browning A5 shotgun btw, and LOOKS - StG44 and AK have nothing in common.

AK action is based on previous design (and yet not his first small arms design) by gospodin Kalashnikov the "Experimental Self-Loading Carbine (1944)". Just let the guy read it and it will be clear, especially by loading idea, what was inspiration - and direct inspiration only - for the design. Further think, where are bolt rotation controling: lug and cam in M1 Garand and in above carbine and further in AK and where were they located in other rotation locked weapons (answers are: cam in operating part - call it op rod or bolt carrier, lug in bolt and located in extreme forward, just behind bolt face, measuring it in horizontal plain). The rest of the action design are results and merits of using that basic configuration for the "heart" of the weapon plus putting operating spring in rear of receiver but also partially in a channel in bolt carrier, to shorten the receiver). Let me also suggest studying subsuquent incarnations of AK here - with 1944 carbine taken as a starting point.

(on rotating bolt) "But to the perfection it was made by Germans on the aircraft machine guns (guns) Mg -151 and the automatic carbine Fg-42, and already then it borrowed many our."

Too funny! HOW rotating bolts were operated in MG 151 and FG 42 is completely different - just which one exactly was base for different again AK...?

And at last trigger mechanisms AK-47"and MP43 are identical

So... how is mode of fire changed in MP43...? Doesnt pushing pin from side to side sound like suggestion, that it CAN NOT be identical to AK trigger mehanism, where a pin is being rotated via that large lever...?

kamehouse wrote: Any comments about the field and stream article?

There you go:
"From the Sturmgewehr MP44, the AK-47 assumed its silhouette: pistol grip; short barrel high front sight; and long, slightly curved magazine."
I dont think pistol grip is worth of any comment, nor short barrel and curved magazine (or perhaps StG44 was copied from say Japanese Type 100 smg lol). "High front sight" is simple and inevitable consequence of having gas chamber above barrel, isnt it...?

"Also as with the MP44, the weapon's gas tube, which operates the action, is located above the barrel."
Somebody tell Isaac Lewis, that his 1916 rifle, first to my knowledge individual weapon with gas chamber above barrel, was copied from StG44... What about Soviet AVS and SVT, huh?

"The action and trigger mechanism owe much to the American M1 Garand rifle."
Well, now thats more like it. So what is more crucial for pointing out design relation between two weapons: pistol grip, curved magazine or short barrel OR action design?

Baltas · Post by **Baltas** » 17 Feb 2007 16:33

Too funny! HOW rotating bolts were operated in MG 151 and FG 42 is completely different - just which one exactly was base for different again AK...?

and So... how is mode of fire changed in MP43...? Doesnt pushing pin from side to side sound like suggestion, that it CAN NOT be identical to AK trigger mehanism, where a pin is being rotated via that large lever...?

It is question not for me but for the chief designer of the central scientific research institute of precise machine building (directing agency for the development of small arms) Dmitriy Ivanovich Shiryaev.I think he very good knows weapons systems but I do not trust Russians sources so Kocur if you want something to prove FG 42 cross-sectional views of Ak 46 FG 42 MG 151
КБ-П-410 ТКБ-415 M1 Garand and explain what is difference of operation of bolts FG 42 and AK47.
Now about AK trigger mehanism:
Ударно-спусковые механизмы АК-47 и StGw идентичны: та же форма курка, такое же расположение заднего шептала одиночного огня, абсолютно идентичная витая боевая пружина, тот же принцип постановки курка на боевой взвод. Единственное отличие заключается в том, что у АК коромысло и спусковой крючок объединены в одну деталь. Зачем Калашников это сделал, не знаю. Это только усложняет технологию изготовления детали, а при стрельбе очередями приводит к эффекту набивания пальца за счет постоянных ударов боевого взвода курка по зацепу спускового крючка
.Rough trnaslate:Fast and well- trigger mechanisms AK-47"and StGw are identical: the same form of cock, the same arrangement of the rear sear of single-shot fire, absolutely identical soaring firing pin spring, the same principle of setting cock to the combat position. Only difference is in the fact that in AK the yoke and trigger are united into one detail. Why Kalashnikov this made, I do not know. This only complicates the technology of the production of detail, and with the fire by bursts it leads to the effect of strike of finger due to constant impacts of the combat platoon of cock on the hook of trigge.I think it's prove Shiryaev's proposition.
And at the end what did Hugo Schmeisser 7 years? I think he not shepherd of sheeps.

Kocur · Post by **Kocur** » 17 Feb 2007 22:56

Baltas wrote:I think he very good knows weapons systems but I do not trust Russians sources so Kocur if you want something to prove FG 42 cross-sectional views of Ak 46 FG 42 MG 151КБ-П-410 ТКБ-415 M1 Garand and explain what is difference of operation of bolts FG 42 and AK47.

FG 42 and AK? Its simple: in the former the cam is in the bolt, which makes its diameter rather large all the lenght. The 'operating part' does not 'carry' the bolt, but both run in the receiver independently, just that stud in the former gets into bolt, to act on cam surfaces. The opposite happenes in AK: cam is in the operating part, which does diserve to call it "bolt carrier". Since the stud to cooperate with cam is located in front part of the bolt, the rest of it can be of the size and shape you want - in AK it happenes to be thin 'pipe' to protect firing pin (Garand used that to shape rear part of bolt as flat cover if receiver inside).

Baltas wrote:Rough trnaslate:Fast and well- trigger mechanisms AK-47"and StGw are identical: the same form of cock, the same arrangement of the rear sear of single-shot fire, absolutely identical soaring firing pin spring, the same principle of setting cock to the combat position. Only difference is in the fact that in AK the yoke and trigger are united into one detail. Why Kalashnikov this made, I do not know. This only complicates the technology of the production of detail, and with the fire by bursts it leads to the effect of strike of finger due to constant impacts of the combat platoon of cock on the hook of trigge.I think it's prove Shiryaev's proposition.

So identical or not identical?
Am I sure, that trigger mechanism of StG44 didnt influence of AK? I dont know, it certainly could have! Such "hammer interception" mechanisms, and one is present in say M16 too, are all adaptations of Browning's brilliant idea (single fire mechanism with no disconnector, in roughest version it can be just THREE parts apart from hammer itself, including a pin and spring), just that auto mode is added. It takes auto sear and ability to disengage rear sear. And the way the latter acomplished in AK is different to that in StG 44. In short trigger mechanism is the closest thing between the two weapons, and its quite probable, that the idea was taken from StG44 - apart from that both weapons are totally different.

Baltas wrote: And at the end what did Hugo Schmeisser 7 years? I think he not shepherd of sheeps.

I have no idea! But I think you know, that 7,62mm x 39 avtomat competition was just one of many automatic firearms programs in Soviet Union in those 7 years, most of which were not succesful and there is little or no knlowledge on them at all.

Baltas · Post by **Baltas** » 02 May 2007 17:12

Kocur wrote:
I have no idea! But I think you know, that 7,62mm x 39 avtomat competition was just one of many automatic firearms programs in Soviet Union in those 7 years, most of which were not succesful and there is little or no knlowledge on them at all.

why so big secret because it was made by germans even Kalashnikov's colleagues witness he can not made AK 47.
Source:http://faq.guns.ru/shiraev.html So can you imagine soviets main small weapon made by germans I can not that contradict for officially propaganda everything was made by russians.

Regard Baltas

Kocur · Post by **Kocur** » 02 May 2007 18:40

Baltas wrote: why so big secret because it was made by germans even Kalashnikov's colleagues witness he can not made AK 47.
Source: http://faq.guns.ru/shiraev.html So can you imagine soviets main small weapon made by germans I can not that contradict for officially propaganda everything was made by russians.

Funny, but the artilce you linked says that Kalashnikov used LOTS of help from his RUSSIAN collegues and then 'forgot' to mention that in his memoirs, and regarding 'German influence' it says that AK internally is totally different to StG44...

Want a Soviet weapon closely realated to German? Go for NS aircraft cannon series - their bolt group is MG 151 rip off.