Not another MP44/AK47 story?!

[Baltas]

Kocur wrote"Funny, but the artilce you linked says that Kalashnikov used LOTS of help from his RUSSIAN collegues and then 'forgot' to mention that in his memoirs, and regarding 'German influence' it says that AK internally is totally different to StG44... "

It's not funny you don't understand point of article.
I'll say it very shotly,in 1946 was ban designig guns by servicemen but two servicemen designig wepon but for ban reason they used to Kalashnikov(name) like covering also sad in article that all modells of weapons suggest by Kalashnikov for tests was so primitive that for firing test was not allowed.

You Kocur except by capital letters RUSSIAN collegues.It show for me that for you very inportent nationality but as you know SSSR was multinational state and in artilce I can not find analysis by nationality of майор В.Ф. Лютый and майор ГАУВ С. Дейкин maybe can you show for me.

Regard Baltas

[Kocur]

I'll say it very shotly,in 1946 was ban designig guns by servicemen but two servicemen designig wepon but for ban reason they used to Kalashnikov(name) like covering also sad in article that all modells of weapons suggest by Kalashnikov for tests was so primitive that for firing test was not allowed.

So there is no any 'German connection', right?

You Kocur except by capital letters RUSSIAN collegues.It show for me that for you very inportent nationality but as you know SSSR was multinational state and in artilce I can not find analysis by nationality of майор В.Ф. Лютый and майор ГАУВ С. Дейкин maybe can you show for me.

Oh, dear! Naturally I realise that, and used word "Russian" to simplify it and in case there was a German designer, who accepted Soviet citizenship Sorry if it hurt your feelings by diminishing your nationality participation in Soviet Union - never meant that.

[Baltas]

Kocur wrote:So there is no any 'German connection', right?
O I see you stop claim that Ak47 made by Kalashnikov.
Is it mean you agree that Kalashnikov made nothing only give name?
About germans I will repeat again:

Schmeisser's brilliance continued to impress the Red Army, and he, along with other weapons designers and their families, was relocated to the USSR. On October 24, 1946 The German specialists rode a train to Izhevsk in the southern Ural Mountains, where a center of Russian firearms development was located. Hugo Schmeisser's work while in the Red Army in Izhevsk (1946-1952) is shrouded in darkness. Little is known of his life during this period, until 1952 when he and other German specialists returned home to Germany. With short notice, his stay in the Soviet Union was extended beyond that of the other weapon specialists by a half year.

Six years shrouded in darkness why?even now when Russia free.I think one answer germans gundesigners work at AK and result AK47.It's like Katyn evens long years claiming it was done by fascists and after all it is clear it was done by redfascist so wait a little and truth will clear.
My feelings you don't hurt because you don't know my nationality

Regard Baltas

[Kocur]

Kocur wrote:So there is no any 'German connection', right?
O I see you stop claim that Ak47 made by Kalashnikov.

Did I ever start to? I have idea who was or who were people who designed and perfected what we know as AK. What I do know is that it has nothing to do with StG 44 designwise.

About germans I will repeat again:

Schmeisser's brilliance continued to impress the Red Army (...)

Six years shrouded in darkness why?even now when Russia free.I think one answer germans gundesigners work at AK and result AK47.

And there is AFAIK no German 1945 or earlier weapon that would bear any resemblence with AK (internally!!) BUT the latter has so much to do with M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. Do you think that it really took Germans to notice potential, that above US weapons bolt group design had? And what about Kalashnikov's (lets call it so at least for the lack of a better way) carbine of 1944...? The weapon that obviosly took lots from M1 Garand, was created way before Soviets captured any German small arm designers and also obviously was a starting point for the later AK? And for that matter: who made other candidates in the Soviet 'assault rifle' competition, i.e. how many captured German small arms designers Soviets had...?

Btw.: Hugo Schmeisser is the last candidate to be 'father' of AK, as the design just doesnt look, like Schmeisser's work. Now Louis Stange on the other hand...

[Baltas]

Kocur wrote:Btw.: Hugo Schmeisser is the last candidate to be 'father' of AK, as the design just doesnt look, like Schmeisser's work. Now Louis Stange on the other hand...
O you can see MP18,28,34,36 it is not similar to MP44 internally even externally so it is not Schmeisser's design I think it isKalashnikov's

Kocur wrote: i.e. how many captured German small arms designers Soviets had...?
Good question I don't know but source http://geraldika.udmurt.info/simvol/kalash/ give
434"«Осенью 1946 г. Хуго Шмайссер был настоятельно «приглашён» на несколько лет для работы в СССР. Такие же приглашения были сделаны известным конструкторам стрелкового оружия Карлу Барнитцке, Оскару Шинку, Оскару Бертцольду, Отто Дичу и Хансу-Иохиму Дичу. 24 октября 1946 г. из Зуля отправился специальный поезд, в который в Лейпциге подсели другие специалисты из Саксонии. Через две недели немецкие специалисты оказались в Ижевске, где находился оружейный завод, на котором им и предстояло трудиться. Все немцы разместились в центре города в квартирах дома по адресу улица Красная, № 133 (этот дом сохранился и до наших дней — А.К.)…Известно, что когда в январе 1952 г. 340 немецких специалистов были отправлены обратно в Германию, среди них не было Хуго Шмайссера и Карла Барнитцке (бывший главный конструктор фирмы Gustlof Werke), которые вернулись на родину только 9 июня 1952 г. в составе второй партии немцев из 134 человек».

По некоторым данным, в нашей стране трудился и доктор Грюнер – создатель пулемёта MG42."

Kocur wrote:I have idea who was or who were people who designed and perfected what we know as AK. What I do know is that it has nothing to do with StG 44 designwise
But idea it not meant fact.
So I think Hugo Schmeisser and others germany gundesigners developed further StG 44 conception and made AK 47

Regard Baltas

[Kocur]

Kocur wrote:Btw.: Hugo Schmeisser is the last candidate to be 'father' of AK, as the design just doesnt look, like Schmeisser's work. Now Louis Stange on the other hand...
O you can see MP18,28,34,36 it is not similar to MP44 internally even externally so it is not Schmeisser's design I think it isKalashnikov's

But you do see that MP 18 and further smg were blowback operated and StG 44 is a locked bolt, gas operated weapon...? Still none of Schmeisser works bares any resemblance with AK action.

So I think Hugo Schmeisser and others germany gundesigners developed further StG 44 conception and made AK 47

Right. All 474 of them. And lets just forget Kalshnikov's 1944 carbine a la M1 Garand, on which AK action is based and fact that among lots of late 3rd Reich small arms ideas (roller bolt, gas retarded blowback etc) there is nothing like reworked and improved Garand's action.
Was those Germans expertise used in perfecting Soviet weapons, including ALL contenders in 'avtomat competition'? Very well may be even if no German was mentioned in the text you presented previously, where Soviet designers kind of complained that Kalashnikov 'forgot' their assistance. Just please stop insisting that AK is something like a clone of StG 44. It makes about as much sense as suggesting that M14 is a clone of FN 49.

Was those German noted designers knowledge used? Surely was. How? Well, probably exactly like in case of aviation designers, ie. they were to continue projects started in Germany. But obviously that didnt work out. For even though Karl Barnitzke spent those seven years in Soviet Union - have we ever heard of a Soviet weapon having gas retarded blowback, like in his VG 1-5, and used much later in Steyr GB and HK P7? Btw: isnt it curious, that even though the Germans were by far the most experienced in stampings in small arms (especially also mentioned in the Russian quotation above dr Grunov) - it took so long to see succesful stamped receiver AK, ie. AKM? Speaking of Grunov - any Soviet roller bolt weapon...?

[Baltas]

Kocur wrote:But you do see that MP 18 and further smg were blowback operated and StG 44 is a locked bolt, gas operated weapon...? So as you see StG 44 and MP18 absolutely different but designer the same so what can prevent further developing StG 44 conception with rotating bolt?Nobody.

Kocur wrote: Just please stop insisting that AK is something like a clone of StG 44.
Where did I insist about clone? From first my post I state about further developing StG 44 conception.
So return to 1946 in that weapon contest leader was Sudayev.In the middle of 1946 Kalashnikov present first model of assault rifle but according the witnesses who tested this gun it was absolute bullshit and father perfection not being subject.I don't understand how can weapon with "unique"rotating bolt and made by "genius" was absolute bullshit.And here Sudayev dies and further in this entire history there is much fog and note that before the appearance AK remains less than the year and the fact only that Hugo Shmaysser, since 1945 which works on the Soviet "technical commission" (in the territory of seized Germany), suddenly, exactly in 1946, urgently is transported into Izhevsk and Kocur wrote: Just please stop insisting that AK is something like a clone of StG 44.
Where did I insist about clone? From first my post I state about further developing StG 44 conception.
So return to 1946 in that weapon contest leader was Sudayev.In the middle of 1946 Kalashnikov present first model of assault rifle but according the witnesses who tested this gun it was absolute bullshit and father perfection not being subject.I don't understand how can weapon with "unique"rotating bolt and made by "genius" was absolute bullshit.And here Sudayev dies and further in this entire history there is much fog and note that before the appearance AK remains less than the year and the fact only that Hugo Shmaysser, since 1945 which works on the Soviet "technical commission" (in the territory of seized Germany), suddenly, exactly in 1946, urgently is transported into Izhevsk and in 1947 appears finished AK. So it explains why Russians up to now can not explain what Hugo Shmaysser did in Russia but I think in time they will create new propaganda story and site like http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/ because Shmaysser is died besides I think soviets and Russian propaganda is very good and impudence even about well know facts and in presence a lot of witneses they claim contrarily I meant about Baltic states "voluntarily"entry to CCCP.So I think this http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/ propaganda site for naive westerners.

Regard Baltas

[Ingsoc75]

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! It never ends!

[Baltas]

Enigma229 wrote

:AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! It never ends!

I disagree with you.It's like Katyn case long time propaganda specialists claim that was done by germans even in that crazy propaganda story participated well know professor N.Burdenko but finally truth clarified.So need only some time
All mine information from Russian websites where brave russians try to give opinion incongruous with official propaganda.

So Enigma229 be patient .

Regard Baltas

[Baltas]

I will ad more Enigma229

I read that about 80% truth you can to know from free sources only need carefully study.
So read one Kalashnikov interview with journalist Kalashnikov was asked by journalist very specific technical question answer was like weather forecast in Poland.
So what it meant: typical propagandist.
Source:http://www.echo.msk.ru/guests/10982/

Regard Baltas

[Rikard Hufschmied]

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! It never ends!

No it doesn't. There will always be opponents and proponents for either side of this question. My standpoint is clear though. Is the AK an MP/STG44 clone? No it is not. Was it influenced by it? Yes it was. The only things the two designs share is a curved magazine, over barrel gas channel, extensive use of stampings (first model AK) and the use of an intermediate round. Hardly unique design features any of them at the time. Bringing all these features together for the first time is the unique part and that is also where the "influence" part comes in. The Soviets saw a winning concept and developed their own solution for it.

[Baltas]

Rikard Hufschmied wrote:

The Soviets saw a winning concept and developed their own solution for it.

Interesting to know how did you know who are designers of that gun.Maybe you read "free" soviets archive and know what did Hugo Shmaysser and other germans gundesigners.
Modern-day russian web sites very foggy. Example site http://www.legendary-arms.ru/submachine-guns/fg42 and interesting sentences:

Автоматическая винтовка FG-42 – это один из самых интересных образцов стрелкового оружия вермахта. Ничего революционного в конструкции винтовки нет, но Луису Штанге удалось объединить необъединимое. Это послужило толчком к разработке целого ряда подобных систем в Америке и Швейцарии. Некоторые детали и узлы нашли применение и в разработках советских конструкторов

Automatic rifle FG-42 is one of the most interesting samples of a small arms germans Anything revolutionary in a design of a rifle is not present, but Louis Stange was succeed ed to unite ununite. It was an incitement to development of a lot of similar systems in America and Switzerland. Some details and units have found application and in development of the Soviet designers.

What soviets designers for what weapons?question open.

Regard Baltas

[KLange]

Kocur wrote:So there is no any 'German connection', right?
O I see you stop claim that Ak47 made by Kalashnikov.

Did I ever start to? I have idea who was or who were people who designed and perfected what we know as AK. What I do know is that it has nothing to do with StG 44 designwise.

About germans I will repeat again:

Schmeisser's brilliance continued to impress the Red Army (...)

Six years shrouded in darkness why?even now when Russia free.I think one answer germans gundesigners work at AK and result AK47.

And there is AFAIK no German 1945 or earlier weapon that would bear any resemblence with AK (internally!!) BUT the latter has so much to do with M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. Do you think that it really took Germans to notice potential, that above US weapons bolt group design had? And what about Kalashnikov's (lets call it so at least for the lack of a better way) carbine of 1944...? The weapon that obviosly took lots from M1 Garand, was created way before Soviets captured any German small arm designers and also obviously was a starting point for the later AK? And for that matter: who made other candidates in the Soviet 'assault rifle' competition, i.e. how many captured German small arms designers Soviets had...?

Btw.: Hugo Schmeisser is the last candidate to be 'father' of AK, as the design just doesnt look, like Schmeisser's work. Now Louis Stange on the other hand...

So are you saying that Mr. Kalashnikov didn't design the prototype semiauto carbine or the AK-47 automatic rifle? Or are you saying that he did, but that he had a good deal of help from other people? Also, what are the differences between the action of the carbine, and that of the prototypical AK?

[Baltas]

Dear KLange saying it not meant truth and russian propaganda web sites also not meant truth only what we know for 100% is that The German weapons specialists meantime was in russia and work for russians and in this matter no oponents or Kalashnikov colleagues claim he is bullshit but not weapon designer.
I was born in sssr and know how act soviet and nowaday russian propaganda and read Kalashnikov's book about AK it was tipical propaganda creation so I doing conclusion Kalashnikov is soviet propaganda product.
How was made AK this time we will not know only after when Russia become normal democratic state it will be posible.


Best regard Baltas

[KLange]

Dear KLange saying it not meant truth and russian propaganda web sites also not meant truth only what we know for 100% is that The German weapons specialists meantime was in russia and work for russians and in this matter no oponents or Kalashnikov colleagues claim he is bullshit but not weapon designer.
I was born in sssr and know how act soviet and nowaday russian propaganda and read Kalashnikov's book about AK it was tipical propaganda creation so I doing conclusion Kalashnikov is soviet propaganda product.
How was made AK this time we will not know only after when Russia become normal democratic state it will be posible.


Best regard Baltas

So you're saying that just because you mentioned it, doesn't necessarily mean that notion that Kalashnikov didn't really design the AK was true, and that Russian/Soviet propaganda isn't necessarily true either?


Well, Kalashnikov did work on the state railways before the war, if I'm not mistaken, so he apparently had at least some engineering experience and knowhow. My opinion was that Kalashnikov did indeed design the prototype of the AK, but that a number of people, as well as Kalashnikov, were involved in developing it into the finished AK, and that some of them were Germans. If someone else designed the rifle, and Stalin disliked them and wanted someone else to get the credit, why pick Kalashnikov? Why not someone else who Stalin would have liked more, like Tokarev? Also, do we know that the people who dissed Kalashnikov were'nt jealous?.