Not another MP44/AK47 story?!

[Baltas]

KLange wrote:Well,

Kalashnikov did work on the state railways before the war, if I'm not mistaken, so he apparently had at least some engineering experience and knowhow.

From Kalashnikov's CV

До 1936 года Михаил Калашников учился в школе. По окончании 9-го класса он поступил на работу техническим секретарем политотдела 3-го отделения Туркестано-Сибирской железной дороги

Translation:Till 1936 Michael Kalashnikov go to school. Upon termination of 9-th class it has gone to work the technical secretary of a political department of 3-rd branch of the Turkmenian-Siberian railway.
So here I can not see engineering experience and knowhow
I see propaganda experience
But here I can not see problem.For you designer of АК-47 Kalashnikov for me Hugo Shmaysser it depend on how man resistant to propaganda and faculty to analysis.A lot of people admired ideals of nazi and rednazi some not.So I have the advantage over you I lived in USSR and I can read in russian
and I know how act evil state propaganda.Sometimes I am visiting russians web forums and there russians colleagues fully proved for me that Kalashnikov are only clown of propaganda

Here good example how evil state acted and act against germany inventor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU6C6Gj2 ... n%20design

Best regard Baltas

[KLange]

KLange wrote:Well,

Kalashnikov did work on the state railways before the war, if I'm not mistaken, so he apparently had at least some engineering experience and knowhow.

From Kalashnikov's CV

До 1936 года Михаил Калашников учился в школе. По окончании 9-го класса он поступил на работу техническим секретарем политотдела 3-го отделения Туркестано-Сибирской железной дороги

Translation:Till 1936 Michael Kalashnikov go to school. Upon termination of 9-th class it has gone to work the technical secretary of a political department of 3-rd branch of the Turkmenian-Siberian railway.
So here I can not see engineering experience and knowhow
I see propaganda experience
But here I can not see problem.For you designer of АК-47 Kalashnikov for me Hugo Shmaysser it depend on how man resistant to propaganda and faculty to analysis.A lot of people admired ideals of nazi and rednazi some not.So I have the advantage over you I lived in USSR and I can read in russian
and I know how act evil state propaganda.Sometimes I am visiting russians web forums and there russians colleagues fully proved for me that Kalashnikov are only clown of propaganda

Here good example how evil state acted and act against germany inventor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU6C6Gj2 ... n%20design

Best regard Baltas

I don't see Schmeisser having designed the AK-47. FOr the simple reason that it has more similarities with American weaponry than Kraut. Also, wouldn't a technical secretary have at least some engineering knowledge (hence the term "technical"). For all we know, Mikhail could well have picked up some engineering knowhow during his stint. Also, you never answered my statement on why wouldn't Stalin have picked some other designer like Tokarev if a guy he didn't like designed the AK? You say that members of Russian web forums say that Kalashnikov was basically a hack. Could you post some hard evidence in good English? Also, if Kalashnikov was indeed a hack, wouldn't it have come out by now? That is, wouldn't more people have known?

[KLange]

I used to make that AK/MP44 connection, until someone pointed out that the latter reminds him more of the early Heckler & Koch designs. I guess that would make more sense.

BTW I heard that one problem with the MP44 was that it could not be detail-stripped in the field. It had to go 'back to the shop'. Any truth in this?

I think that the fellow you mentioned may have been thinking of the MP/Stg 45 not the 44. The 44 was a gas-operated rifle, while the 45 was a roller delayed blowback like the Heckler & Koch weapons.

[Baltas]

KLange wrote:

I don't see Schmeisser having designed the AK-47. FOr the simple reason that it has more similarities with American weaponry

How you are going to prove that maybe you know what Schmeisser and others germans weapons designers did in Russian for six years.I think he shepherded sheep because russians had "genius" Kalashnikov. Maybe you have access for "free"russians archives Could you post some hard evidence in good English that germans weapons designers job was not designing weapons but shepherded sheep
I think similarities can not show designer.

For all we know, Mikhail could well have picked up some engineering knowhow during his stint.

What it meant: all we know.I think you talk for yourself I don,t know it states russian propaganda.
Klange wrote:

Also, you never answered my statement on why wouldn't Stalin have picked some other designer like Tokarev if a guy he didn't like designed the AK?

Somebody must be picked but why was make decision picked Kalashnikov
I don,t know I have not access to "free" russians archives besides I
first time to knew that Stalin took apart in technical commission work .
Maybe you can provide source please.

Also, if Kalashnikov was indeed a hack, wouldn't it have come out by now? That is, wouldn't more people have known?

At a moment it is impossible russians state must transform into normal state.

Best regard Baltas

[KLange]

KLange wrote:

I don't see Schmeisser having designed the AK-47. FOr the simple reason that it has more similarities with American weaponry

How you are going to prove that maybe you know what Schmeisser and others germans weapons designers did in Russian for six years.I think he shepherded sheep because russians had "genius" Kalashnikov. Maybe you have access for "free"russians archives Could you post some hard evidence in good English that germans weapons designers job was not designing weapons but shepherded sheep
I think similarities can not show designer.

For all we know, Mikhail could well have picked up some engineering knowhow during his stint.

What it meant: all we know.I think you talk for yourself I don,t know it states russian propaganda.
Klange wrote:

Also, you never answered my statement on why wouldn't Stalin have picked some other designer like Tokarev if a guy he didn't like designed the AK?

Somebody must be picked but why was make decision picked Kalashnikov
I don,t know I have not access to "free" russians archives besides I
first time to knew that Stalin took apart in technical commission work .
Maybe you can provide source please.

Also, if Kalashnikov was indeed a hack, wouldn't it have come out by now? That is, wouldn't more people have known?

At a moment it is impossible russians state must transform into normal state.

Best regard Baltas

Well, Kalashnikov competed against Feodor Tokarev, the guy who designed the SVT-38/40 rifle and the TT-33 pistol, and also Sergei G. Simonov, who designed the AVS-36 and SKS-45 rifles and two or three other teams. Tokarev was probably a favorite in the competition, after all, Stalin liked him. Simonov had some political problems, though that didn't prevent the Russians from adopting his SKS. If indeed Kalashnikov didn't design the AK, but someone else did, and Stalin wanted a Russian to get the credit, why not Simonov, or especially Tokarev? Also, when you said that Kalashnikov's design was crappy, are you sure you weren't referring to his submachine gun? Before the assault rifle competion, Kalashnikov designed a semi auto carbine( in competition with the SKS, which won) and a submachine gun. I think that maybe you might have been referring to the latter.

Still, I feel that Herr Schmeisser was indeed probably involved in the design of the AK, namely that he was part of the team which helped develop it into the final, finished model. To the best of my knowledge, I never said that Schmeisser wasn't involved with the AK design. You'd think that with Russia's period of liberalzation, old government documents would be easier to look at. We may never know for 100% sure. You have your opinion, and I have mine, and let's respect each others, okay?

[Armeiro]

...the ak47,is just a sks on a box...end of conversation.
Why was the mp44,a gas operated rifle?What is the need for a gas operated rifle?
The mp44 had a rate of fire of 500 to 600 rounds per minute,the g3,a roller-delayed blowback rifle,has a rate of fire of 500 to 600 rounds per minute,so why,whhhhhhy?

[Tony Williams]

...the ak47,is just a sks on a box...end of conversation.
Why was the mp44,a gas operated rifle?What is the need for a gas operated rifle?
The mp44 had a rate of fire of 500 to 600 rounds per minute,the g3,a roller-delayed blowback rifle,has a rate of fire of 500 to 600 rounds per minute,so why,whhhhhhy?

The first answer is that the roller-delayed blowback was not invented until the StG 45, years after the prototype of the MP 43/44 was designed.

The second answer is that gas operation has certain advantages: note that HK has switched to gas operation for its most recent designs, after using roller-delayed blowbacks for decades.

The rate of fire is not significant, except that you don't want it to be too high as that just wastes ammunition.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[Armeiro]

...the the roller-delayed blowback was not invented until the StG 45, years after the prototype of the MP 43/44 was designed. was not invented until the StG 45, years after the prototype of the MP 43/44 was designed.

And the mg42,that was roller-delayed blowback operated,what i am saying is,the mp40 is blowback operated,with the same 500 rounds per minute like the mp44,why didnt the germans just changed the mp40 reciver and gun barrel to use the same type of ammo used by the mp44?
Why make a new type of weapon in the middle of a war,like ww2?And why so many types,mkb42h,mp42,mp43 44,arent the all the same?What makes the mkb42h diferent of the stg44?...pardon my ignorance

[Tony Williams]

[quote="ArmeiroAnd the mg42,that was roller-delayed blowback operated,what i am saying is,the mp40 is blowback operated,with the same 500 rounds per minute like the mp44,why didnt the germans just changed the mp40 reciver and gun barrel to use the same type of ammo used by the mp44?[/quote]
The MG 42 was not blowback operated: it used roller-locking, but had a short-recoil action (the barrel recoiled with the bolt for a short distance, before the bolt was unlocked).

A simple blowback action like the MP 40's was only suitable for pistol cartridges like the 9x19. The MP 44 used far more powerful 7.92x33 ammunition which needed some means to delay the opening of the breech.

Why make a new type of weapon in the middle of a war,like ww2?And why so many types,mkb42h,mp42,mp43 44,arent the all the same?What makes the mkb42h diferent of the stg44?...pardon my ignorance

There were initially two competing models which were field tested: the MKb 42(h) by Haenel and the MKb 42(w) by Walther. The Haenel design was selected with various modifications which turned it into the MP 43. Further minor modifications led to it being called the MP 44 (and later the StG 44).

We all start out ignorant. We learn by asking questions (and reading, of course...)

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[Russianboy]

The main internal likeness the AK47 and MP44 both share is that the gas system in both rifles are based off the SVT38 (and 40).

[Kocur]

The main internal likeness the AK47 and MP44 both share is that the gas system in both rifles are based off the SVT38 (and 40).

Wrong. SVT has stationary piston sticking out back from gas block and moveable cylinder, which pushes the operating rod back - much like in AR-18 and its "relatives". Both StG 44 and AK have usual gas pipe and piston at the end of operating rod.

[Baltas]

KLange wrote:

If indeed Kalashnikov didn't design the AK, but someone else did, and Stalin wanted a Russian to get the credit, why not Simonov, or especially Tokarev?

Simonov and Tokarev was really weapons designers and they simply could not give theirs names for german creations for that task need villain.
So I think it is exactly was suitable Kalashnikov.
KLange wrote:

Also, when you said that Kalashnikov's design was crappy, are you sure you weren't referring to his submachine gun?

I am sure.Source http://geraldika.udmurt.info/simvol/kalash/ sad:

Примерно в середине 1946 г. Калашников представил свой первый автомат под промежуточный патрон для испытаний на научно-исследовательский полигон стрелкового и минометного вооружения Главного артиллерийского управления (ГАУ), который располагался в посёлке Щурово Раменского района Московской области. Мы пока не знаем, в соответствии с каким ТТТ был разработан этот автомат, не известно как он выглядел и где хранится. Известно только, что, согласно заключительному акту испытаний, которые провёл старший лейтенант У.И.Пчелинцев, было установлено, что «система несовершенна и доработке не подлежит».

Translating:
Approximately in the middle 1946 Kalashnikov has presented the assault rifle under an intermediate cartridge for tests for research.
We yet do not know, according to what ТТТ this the assault rifle has been developed, it is not known as it looked and where is stored. It is known only, that, according to the final certificate of tests which were lead by senior lieutenant U.I.Pchelintsev, it has been established, that " the system is imperfect also to completion is not a subject ".

Best regard Baltas

[Armeiro]

Why so much confusion,common,he isnt a idiot,the carbine made by him in 1944 had most of the functionality principals used on the ak47.
It is a big mistake to assume that the ak47 is a copy of the stg44,it is not the same rifle,it was probably jus used as a idea of how a knew rifle would funcion.
The ak47 prototypes are the ones that lock like copies of the sgt44,what we can say is thath they used the german rifle and made a knew one,but without the malfunctions.

[Armeiro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igUaCWhA66E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMJsHwrrb7o

[Wehrmann]

The ak47 prototypes are the ones that lock like copies of the sgt44,what we can say is thath they used the german rifle and made a knew one,but without the malfunctions.

Malfunctions? What do you mean?

Wehrmann