Pilot Sidearms?

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
Dan Feltmate
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Pilot Sidearms?

Post by Dan Feltmate » 11 Apr 2002 01:58

Hello,

I do recall reading in my book "The Blond Knight of Germany" by Tolvier and Constable, that Erich Hartmann carried a sidearm when he visited Hitler in Wolfslair in east Prussia. This comes from the chapter "300 and Diamonds." When informed that he (Hartmann) would have to give up his side armm he said:

"Please tell the Fuhrer that I do not want to recieve the Diamonds if he has no Vertrauen in his front line officers."

The security officer went pale.

"Do you want me to tell the Fuher that you will not recieve the diamonds? Because of the pistol regulation?"

"Yes, please. Tell him what I said."

"Wait, please, Hartmann. I wil see Colonel von Below."

"Please do."

I was wondering, what type of pistol did they carry? Was it a revolver pistol? What was the purpose of this pistol? Did they have it with them in air combat?
Apparently, it had a belt, so I am to assume it had a holster of course. Did this holster have the National Socialist eagle?

What else did the belt have on it? How many clips did the gun have?


Thanks in Advance,

- Dan

Logan Hartke
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Post by Logan Hartke » 11 Apr 2002 02:39

It was not a revolver; Germans didn't use any revolvers in WWII. It was most likely a P38 or a Luger. It was in case they were shot down. Many didn't carry it, because it could hinder their escape from the cockpit, especially in the small cockpit of a 109.

Logan Hartke

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Post by Logan Hartke » 11 Apr 2002 02:47

There is one case, however, where sidearms were used in ai-to-air combat...

Image

Burt Mader’s second Grasshopper painting, “Duel In The Sun,” depicts what is thought to be, according to Cornelius Ryan in his book “The Last Battle,” the last aerial battle between Americans and Germans in WWII.

It seems that Lieutenant Duane M. Francis, the L-4 pilot, and Lieutenant William S. Martin, his observer, were scouting ahead for the 5th Armored Division, which was heading northeastward towards Berlin. They were flying along at 800 feet in their L-4 “Miss Me” when Francis spotted a motorcycle racing up the road below. He made a descending turn for a closer look when they spotted the German Fieseler Fi-156 Storch hugging the terrain below them.

Giving chase and armed only with .45-caliber pistols, they opened fire on the German observation plane. After trying to evade the L-4 and with holes in his windscreen, the Storch pilot tried to make a hasty landing in a beet field. He lost one wing and cartwheeled the plane into a pile of parts. Francis landed his L-4 in an adjacent field, and then he and Martin captured the two Germans who had survived the crash.


Logan Hartke

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 11 Apr 2002 02:52

Gents :

Most likely it was scaled down to a 7.65 mm like a Walther PP, PPK, or a Sauer. Big enough for close range self-defence and that is all they were good for or to put a bullet in one's own head. Late in 1945 some pilots flying over the Ost Front had a MP 40 in the cockpit with 1/2 clips, with the hope if they were shot down they would go down swinging... !

E

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Fred
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Post by Fred » 11 Apr 2002 08:00

Germans didn't use any revolvers in WWII.



The Germans used two revolvers( Webley): No.2 MkI.(german marking Revolver 646) and No.1 Mk VI(german marking Revolver 665).

Fred.

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re

Post by tonyh » 11 Apr 2002 11:03

Erich is correct. It was either a Walther PP or PPK. Other pistols are just too big to be comfortable in a 109 cockpit. Besides, the walther PP or PPK was usually worn with a dress uniform. The luger or Walther p38 was a field sidearm generally.

Tony

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Fred
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Post by Fred » 11 Apr 2002 11:54

Göring made an order for some "luger" pistols for the luftwaffe(saw it some years ago on Discovery I think)

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 11 Apr 2002 14:39

Uf the Luger or P-38 was employed then it would of been to bomber or recon crews flying twin engine a/c were these crews were able to move around. Not so in fighter a/c.

E

Logan Hartke
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Re: re

Post by Logan Hartke » 11 Apr 2002 15:02

tonyh wrote:Erich is correct. It was either a Walther PP or PPK. Other pistols are just too big to be comfortable in a 109 cockpit. Besides, the walther PP or PPK was usually worn with a dress uniform. The luger or Walther p38 was a field sidearm generally.

Tony

Now that I think about it, you're absolutely right. I remember that the majority of Luftwaffe fighter pilots carried that. Has anyone seen the old movie "Sahara" with Humphrey Bogart? It was made in World War Two and is based on a true story. It's especially good compared to other war movies because of the weapons accuracy (real M3 Lee/Grant, actual weapons, etc.) the only real problem being that Germans drive American vehicles and the "109" was a Mustang. The "German" halftrack was American, but since Germans used captured examples, I feel it's not inaccurate. Anyway, the German ace in that movie (portrayed as "evil"-it is a wartime movie) carried a walther PP or PPK I think. I can't remember that well, but I believe he did.

Logan Hartke

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Fred
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Post by Fred » 11 Apr 2002 15:46

Uf the Luger or P-38 was employed then it would of been to bomber or recon crews flying twin engine a/c were these crews were able to move around. Not so in fighter a/c.


Yes Erich you a right. Some bomber crews was also fitted with drillings.

Fred.

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 11 Apr 2002 15:54

Fred :

Yes, I have heard that even the seaplane/float plane rescue crews carried the shotgun as well as the Belgien look a like .45 as a side arm. and the small machine pistols.

E

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Fred
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Post by Fred » 11 Apr 2002 17:44

Belgien look a like .45 as a side arm. and the small machine pistols.


The pistol is the FN Browning mod.1935(High Power)cal. 9mm.Para. It was the "first" high capacity handgun( 13 shots). As for the machine pistol I guess that it is the MP-40 but I´m not sure.

Fred.

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Erich
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Post by Erich » 11 Apr 2002 17:48

Rats.....now you've got to get me to research a little bit more. Understand about the 9mm but also thought an 11mm was built ?
Yes, it would be MP 40's in the floatplanes, etc.

E

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MadJim
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Re: re

Post by MadJim » 06 May 2002 16:31

Logan Hartke wrote:
tonyh wrote:Erich is correct. It was either a Walther PP or PPK. Other pistols are just too big to be comfortable in a 109 cockpit. Besides, the walther PP or PPK was usually worn with a dress uniform. The luger or Walther p38 was a field sidearm generally.

Tony

Now that I think about it, you're absolutely right. I remember that the majority of Luftwaffe fighter pilots carried that. Has anyone seen the old movie "Sahara" with Humphrey Bogart? It was made in World War Two and is based on a true story. It's especially good compared to other war movies because of the weapons accuracy (real M3 Lee/Grant, actual weapons, etc.) the only real problem being that Germans drive American vehicles and the "109" was a Mustang. The "German" halftrack was American, but since Germans used captured examples, I feel it's not inaccurate. Anyway, the German ace in that movie (portrayed as "evil"-it is a wartime movie) carried a walther PP or PPK I think. I can't remember that well, but I believe he did.

Logan Hartke


Sahara was a piece of trash.

Lugers were specially made/refurbished for the Luftwaffe, I beleive by Krieghof. Numerous foreign pistols were used by the Wehrmacht including the Polish Radom, Spanish Astras, Belgian Hi-powers, Norwegian 1911's etc. The PP and PP/k - both designed for Police use were popular with pilots because of their size. I beleive the standard issue was a P-08 , later in the war P-38.

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Erich
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other sidearms....

Post by Erich » 06 May 2002 16:43

For the Luftwaffe, some smaller pistols of the WW 1 vintage were also used as a sidearm while flying. I have a 7.65 Becker und Holländer vom Waffenbau, Sühl. It's a beauty, though a little heavy. would of been used for close, self defence and that is it, because past 30 yards the accuracy really falls off.

E

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