"Top 10 Combat Handguns"

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
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Hauptmann Kloss
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#46

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 19 Jul 2008, 05:32

South wrote:...

Chambering a round with injuries - and pain - cannot be performed by a large enough segment of aviators to disregard the benefits of additional malfunction training....

We are getting academic here Bob. Man unable to chamber a round by pushing slide against wreckage is in no condition to fight or avoid capture. Can he aim, take recoil......
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South
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#47

Post by South » 19 Jul 2008, 06:20

Good morning Hauptmann Kloss,

I hold to the exact opposite view.

A revolver is already "primed" and ready for work.

We cannot deal in absolutes. Some injured aviators with eg a broken arm, a burned hand, etc, could still perform survival functions such as leaving the crash scene to avoid detection. A revolver would be ready "in case"; a semi-auto pistol without a chambered round, would not be.

Another example to clarify my point;

Many militaries provide certain of their troops with emergency stringes containing various medicines. The traditional stringe used in civilian clinics and medical centers takes 2 hands to operate. The military have been procuring a "spring-loaded" type. The soldier just pushes the needle into the muscle with 1 hand and the emergency stringe automatically injects the medicine.

Thus, to summerize my point;

the revolver offers its service with one less function needed for the machine to work. Whether this lessened amount of work effort is worth it or not doesn't matter. Someone with injuries but still mobile would surely find a car with an automatic transmission easier to operate than a standard transmission car. I'm saying the same applies to the revolver.

Warm regards,

Bob


Mark V
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#48

Post by Mark V » 19 Jul 2008, 17:29

Hi

I tend to side with those who categorize handguns more of rank insignia in military use, bar extremely rare situations.

On that ground i rate Soviet solution of simple, cheap, reasonably safe to operate, low powered blowback pistol (not wasting as much training time as higher powered weapon), the best.

So Makarov it is. It throws bullets, and minimizes much of the hassle and expenditure.

Regards, Mark V

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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#49

Post by SVaaka » 19 Jul 2008, 18:59

Well one thing makes me wonder in these favorit things...One should not compare guns from absolutely different ages to another. Certainly it is very nice thing to do but seriously, guns from different times have different mechanical and material-solutions so they are not compareable in no possible scales. And certainly even that that is the gun a military or police-issue is one thing cause demands for good sidearm in frontline are absolutely differet to those used by police. Even,one must admit that gap betweem police and militarysidearms has vanished a bit during last years. But thinking about police-officer stpping cars and other vehicles I would certainly prefer using hightpowered revolver over 9,00 Pb automaticpistol - good old S&W m28 Highway Patrolman 357 mag would do the trick. But in frontline I would most certainly trust the old allmighty FN Mle 1935 - no matter if we would live year 1940 or 2008. Reasons are simple. In my opinion dobleaction is not simply needed with militarysidearms. Incase one thinks one is in need to use ones pistol, one certainly has time to cockthe gun. Militarysidearmrs are usually carried in closed holsters so thoughts about fast draws one can forget. The first shot shot like pulling the trigger only - like in doubleaction automatics is always not so likely to hit accurately - so I would prefere to cock my gun first and shoot a nice first shot to kill not to miss. Certainly this can be done also with doupleautomatics - but why then have a DA if not use it? Certainly DA-pistols are more complicated to SA-ones and so ...less reliable. Mle 1935 is one of the most widely spread automaticpistols - hardly none can compare it. Magazine is big enough, it stands and feeds well different kind of 9.00 Pb rounds even with different gunpowderloads. So one gan use same ammo in forinstance ones MP 5 as ones sidearm. Mle 1935 is not too heavy or big. It is probably king of reliable pistols. Colt 1911 is nice gun to shoot with, but 7 rounds in magazine - is not enough. Parabellum p-08, Walther P-38, Tokarev T33 and Vis Radom m1935 are all nice and very nicely handled guns, but once again 8 or 9 shots compared to 13 - not enough. And when one adds to this not so reliable P-08, very complicated P-38 which both do not last when shooting 9.00 rounds with 400 m/s speeds and Tokarevs not so popular round - all is left is Radom. But anyway why to carry Radom with 8 round mag if you have possiability to take FN Mle 1935 with 13 rounds mag. Well this is my opinion, and well tought and tested. Needles to say in my opinion the Mle 1935 is the gun of the all guns - in all categories - going over Suomi m31 subs - and above everything since manufactured.

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Hauptmann Kloss
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#50

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 19 Jul 2008, 20:04

SVaaka wrote:.... Needles to say in my opinion the Mle 1935 is the gun of the all guns - in all categories - going over Suomi m31 subs - and above everything since manufactured.
It is OK gun, probably best 50 years ago but today? CZ75 is much better pistol, if you like FN clones. Great trigger and way stronger frame taking machine gun and P++ ammo w/o breakage.
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Rikard Hufschmied
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#51

Post by Rikard Hufschmied » 20 Jul 2008, 20:41

Hauptmann Kloss wrote:
SVaaka wrote:.... Needles to say in my opinion the Mle 1935 is the gun of the all guns - in all categories - going over Suomi m31 subs - and above everything since manufactured.
It is OK gun, probably best 50 years ago but today? CZ75 is much better pistol, if you like FN clones. Great trigger and way stronger frame taking machine gun and P++ ammo w/o breakage.
I'd say it's a toss between a modern production HP and a CZ-75, more or less the same ergonomics, handling and weight. In its distinct favor though, the CZ-75 is one of the few handguns that has been able to digest a steady diet of m/39B ammo without modifications or breakages. Judging by the diversity of opinions I must say that I used to carry the best of both worlds in the early 90's, a CZ-75 and a Ruger GP 100 stainless, full-lug 4 inch.
Last edited by Rikard Hufschmied on 22 Jul 2008, 11:02, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#52

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Jul 2008, 13:24

Hi Bob,

I appreciate that the thread is devoted to discussing the top 10 combat handguns.

My point was that this is based on the flimsy premise that the handgun is in any real sense a military combat weapon.

It is essentially a limited self defense defense weapon more usually found in a civilian environment. In the military its presence has long been token. Only twice in its history does it seem that the handgun was integrated into wider combat tactics, neither time for long or with any particular noteworthy success. The last time was some 150 years ago.

The handgun is essentially a civilian and/or hobbyist weapon. What is more, it has almost always been so.

I like practicing with hand (and other) guns whenever I am in the USA (hopefully this September). But let's not be under any illusion as to their limitations as military weapons.

Looking for the top ten combat handguns is like looking for the ten tallest dwarves. It can be done, but I would suggest that it serves little useful purpose.

Anyway, in order not to disrupt the flow of the thread further, I will withdraw gracefully at this point.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Rikard Hufschmied
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#53

Post by Rikard Hufschmied » 21 Jul 2008, 16:50

Sid Guttridge wrote: Looking for the top ten combat handguns is like looking for the ten tallest dwarves. It can be done, but I would suggest that it serves little useful purpose.
LOL ...

I agree to a point, with the emergence of the PDW the last bastion and useful purpose held by the handgun (IMO) was overrun.

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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#54

Post by South » 21 Jul 2008, 19:08

Good afternoon Sid,

One man's art might be another man's pornography.

Some individuals, with options, elect to carry handguns in combat. These people consider the machine a military combat weapon for its specific purpose. I gave a couple of examples.

I mentioned downed aviators in their new environment sans aerodynamic lift. I also mentioned "tunnel rats" of the Vietnam War. Believe also mentioned berthing a USN submarine at Magadan, USSR during WWII.

A cruise missile cannot be compared to a 106mm recoilless rifle. Both have different purposes. The ratios of damage is not an issue.

Your point is accepted with my reservations.

Come on over in November for the post-election parties !!!


Warm regards,

Bob

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Fliegende Untertasse
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#55

Post by Fliegende Untertasse » 21 Jul 2008, 19:51

SVaaka wrote:Parabellum p-08, .... but once again 8 or 9 shots
Artillery Luger, 32 round snail drum & buttstock .
The Combat Handgun.
I mean, at least it was designed for the purpose.

Also any top 10 list should have broomhandle Mauser . The workhorse of Boer war , WW1 , Spanish Civil War and Chinese wars. Whatever its shortcomings at least it was used for serious combat .


Flintlock cavalry pistol - decisive weapon of 30-year war,
Colt Walker,
etc...

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Hauptmann Kloss
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#56

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 22 Jul 2008, 14:26

Fliegende Untertasse wrote:
Artillery Luger, 32 round snail drum & buttstock .
The Combat Handgun.
I mean, at least it was designed for the purpose....

By definition it is shoulder fired weapon, not handgun. It is more of carbine in that configuration. PDW of the era.
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Mark V
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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#57

Post by Mark V » 22 Jul 2008, 19:00

Sid Guttridge wrote:The trouble with handguns is that there never seems to have been such a moment. The parallel thread to this make a good case that during the American Civil War the hand gun had a transient role as a secondary weapon in mounted skirmish warfare, but that is a pretty peripheral and transient event.
Hi.

Good point.

There was period in mid-1800s when cap-n-ball revolver held distinct advantages over carbine lenght weapons available.

1) they where first repeater arms available
2) advantages of one-hand weapon to mounted troops

Lets take example year 1861: Reliable 44 and 36 cal cap-n-ball revolvers from Colt and Remington were available. At same time the best cavalry carbines were like Sharps - an breechloader single shot with paper "cartridge". That paper cartridge could be stuffed to chamber in combat, relying the closing of breech to tear the paper apart, revealing powder charge to percussion cap. For short range work an robust and reasonably hard hitting .44 revolver was capable battle weapon at that timeframe.

That was handguns heyday, but those times are long gone.


Mark V


PS. In addition. It is little strech of definition to call Walker and Dragoon Colts handguns - HORSES carried those weapons in holsters :-)

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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#58

Post by Mark V » 22 Jul 2008, 19:36

SVaaka wrote:But in frontline I would most certainly trust the old allmighty FN Mle 1935 - no matter if we would live year 1940 or 2008. Reasons are simple. In my opinion dobleaction is not simply needed with militarysidearms. Incase one thinks one is in need to use ones pistol, one certainly has time to cockthe gun. Militarysidearmrs are usually carried in closed holsters so thoughts about fast draws one can forget. The first shot shot like pulling the trigger only - like in doubleaction automatics is always not so likely to hit accurately - so I would prefere to cock my gun first and shoot a nice first shot to kill not to miss.

Hi.

If we are talking seriously about the possible uses of handgun in "combat" (forgetting the more typical uses of handguns in military, like sport - formal target shooting or various informal ways, rank insignia, execution, suicide, etc...)

You want to do nice, accurate target shooting with your pistol in combat ?

Huh....

The most propable use for handgun in real infantry combat is nothing like that (lets for once forget special forces blah blah and talk about real combat units needs in real war).

It is when you are in situation where time/space available prevents you to use your primary long arm effectively = enemy is already inside the "bayonet reach" (you may already be wrestling with him).

You want to kill him before he kills you. You are not speed drawing, but your other hand is with high propability UNAVAILABLE, preventing your adversary doing some nasty things to your vital organs, so you must kill him with the one free hand you may have available for some time, if you are lucky.

NO LIMBS AVAILABLE to rack the slide, and carrying cocked and locked brings enough accidental discharges to nullify any possible advantages of issue sidearms. Accuracy is nonissue. Pretty much everything else than ergonomics and safety to carry are nonissues (to be able to grab the pistol and discharge easily without second thought, and ability to carry it safely day after day in field).

For previously mentioned, MUCH more common uses of handguns in military, single action is just fine.


Regards, Mark V

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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#59

Post by The Edge » 24 Jul 2008, 16:27

"When a man with .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol's a dead man."
(from “Fistful of Dollars", western movie by Sergio Leone)

If you stay without your prime weapon in military combat situation, you have to avoid any type of confrontation - trying anything with the pistol, that's asking for a plastic bag. If the enemies are breathing on your neck, you probably wouldn't last enough to use 13-shot (or more) pistol capacity.

What's the purpose of pistol in modern military? Obviously only as a back-up weapon. It should be both compact & light and not demanding item, with relatively low ammo. (I remember one interwiev with Vietnam veteran, who carried as secondary weapon a J-frame S&W (5-shots) without any reloads.) Special forces should have also some high-capability pistols for police-style interventions, but they are the only ones with the luxury of prolonged and versatile training.

Best pistol of WWII? Browning HP, of course (if you are paratrooper on enemy teritory without the main weapon or tanker jumping from the burning tank). For more common situations (as back-up weapon) I would probably opted for another WWII favourite of mine, .380 ACP Beretta.

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Re: "Top 10 Combat Handguns"

#60

Post by LWD » 24 Jul 2008, 16:42

The Edge wrote:"When a man with .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol's a dead man."
(from “Fistful of Dollars", western movie by Sergio Leone)...
Reminds me of a story a poster on another forum told. He ended up in a short range engagment with an individual who had an AK-47 he had a 45. Normally he is a crack shot but he ended up fireing several shots before killing the VC took a bullet to the shoulder in the process.

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