Dutch captured weapons, Beutewaffen

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
Kilian
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:37

Dutch captured weapons, Beutewaffen

Post by Kilian » 11 Jan 2009 11:07

Hi,

I am seeking a positive ID on the following German "Beutewaffen" from Holland.

Rifle and carbines:

G 211 (h)
Gr. G 212 (h)
Kb 411 (h)
Kb 412 (h)
Kb 413 (h)
Kb 414 (h)

Bayonets:

Seitengewehr 101 (h)
Seitengewehr 102 (h)
Seitengewehr 103 (h)
Seitengewehr 104 (h)
Bajonett 110 (h)

I think it concerns the following:

G 211 (h) is the M1895 Mannlicher rifle http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04830.html
Gr. G 212 (h) could be the Dutch M1895 trench rifle http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04799.html
Kb 411 (h) could be the cavalry carbine Karabijn No. 1 N.M. http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04801.html
Kb 412 (h) could be the cavalry carbine Karabijn No. 1 O.M. http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04800.html
Kb 413 (h) could be the artillery carbines Karabijn No. 3 O.M. & N.M. http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04805.html and http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04806.html
Kb 414 (h) could be the bicycle corps carbines Karabijn No. 4 O.M. & N.M. http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04808.html

I don´t know if the carbines Karabijn No. 2 and No. 5 ever entered German service. There were a lot more Karabijn No. 5´s than No. 1 O.M.´s

As to the bajonets, I believe the following is true:

Seitengewehr 101 (h) could be the M1895 rifle bayonet with stacking hook http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04849.html or possibly the naval version http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04858.html
Seitengewehr 102 (h) could be the M1895 rifle bayonet without stacking hook
Seitengewehr 103 (h) could be the bayonet for cavalry carbine No 1 N.M. http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04851.html
Seitengewehr 104 (h) could be the bayonet for carbines No. 3 and 4 http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04853.html
Bajonett 110 (h) could be the socket bayonet for the cavalry carbine No. 1 O.M. http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/str ... 04850.html

Is there anyone on this forum who has access to the relevant Kennblätter fremden Geräts who can help me positively ID-ing the above mentioned Beutewaffen? After that the forum´s fact book can be corrected.

Thanks,

Kilian
The Netherlands

jopaerya
Member
Posts: 17764
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 13:21
Location: middelburg

Re: Dutch captured weapons, Beutewaffen

Post by jopaerya » 11 Jan 2009 13:36

Hi Kilian

Please look here http://www.grebbeberg.nl/forum/forum.ph ... 1&view=all

Regards Jos

Kilian
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:37

Re: Dutch captured weapons, Beutewaffen

Post by Kilian » 11 Jan 2009 14:27

Thanks Jos, but I am seeking a more accurate ID and I also believe not all the info presented there is correct.

Check out page 111 of this link to the Kennblätter fremden Geräts for small arms ammunition: http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/fremdesg ... 6cmpdf.pdf

It gives the German designation of all captured Dutch weapons compatible with the Dutch 6,5mm Mannlicher cartridge. A G214(h) is not mentioned and the Gr. G. 212 (h) was in 6,5mm Mannlicher, not in a Winchester caliber.

jopaerya
Member
Posts: 17764
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 13:21
Location: middelburg

Re: Dutch captured weapons, Beutewaffen

Post by jopaerya » 11 Jan 2009 15:10

Hi Kilian

This is what I found in the book Small Arms of the 3 Reich based on D.50/1 Handwaffen

6.5 cm Gewehr 211 (h) = Geweer M95
6.5 cm Graben-Gewehr 212 (h) = not in the book but the Gr could mean Graben (trench)
6.5 cm Karabiner 411 (h) = Karabijn No 1
6.5 cm Karabiner 412 (h) = Karabijn No 1 OM and NM
6.5 cm Karabiner 413 (h) = Karabijn No 3 OM and NM
6.5 cm Karabiner 414 (h) = Karabijn No 4 OM and NM

In this list is the No 2 and 5 missing ???

Regards Jos

Kilian
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:37

Re: Dutch captured weapons, Beutewaffen

Post by Kilian » 11 Jan 2009 20:59

And here´s what is said about these types in the Axis History Factbook (I´ve left the non-relevant types out)

Gewehr 211(h) Ex " Geweer M95" - Calibre 6,5mm
Gewehr 212(h) Ex "Geweer M95" (With "winchester type loading") - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 411(h) Ex "Karabijn No1" - Calibre 6,5mm
Karabiner 412(h) Ex "Karabijn No1 O.M" - Calibre 6,5mm
Karabiner 413(h) Ex "Karabijn No3 en 3 O.M" - Calibre 6,5mm
Karabiner 414(h) Ex "Karabijn 1 en 1 O.M" - Calibre 6,5mm


See the discrepancies?

The remark regarding the "winchester type loading" of the 212(h) could be an indication that indeed the trenchrifle (loopgraafgeweer) is meant, as that has visual similarities to the Winchester underlever system.

Kilian
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:37

Re: Dutch captured weapons, Beutewaffen

Post by Kilian » 11 Jan 2009 22:16

Hi,

I´ve now seen the original Kennblätter fremden Geräts:

Rifles & Carbines:

G 211 (h) = Geweer M1895 (Mannlicher M1895 Infantry Rifle)
Gr. G 212 (h) = Loopgraafgeweer M1895 (Mannlicher M1895 trench rifle) , "Gr. G" = Graben Gewehr
K 411 (h) = Karabijn No. 1 N.M. (carbine No.1 New Model, cavalry)
K 412 (h) = Karabijn No. 1 O.M. (carbine No. 1 Old Model, cavalry)
K 413 (h) = Karabijn No. 3 O.M. & N.M. (carbine No. 3 Old Model and New Model, artillery & pioneers)
K 414 (h) = Karabijn No. 4 O.M. & N.M. (carbine No. 4 Old Model and New Model, bicyclists)

Bayonets:

S 101 (h) = M1895 infantry rifle bayonet with stacking hook
S 102 (h) = M1895 infantry rifle bayonet without stacking hook
S 103 (h) = cavalry bayonet for the Karabijn No. 1 N.M.
S 104 (h) = artillery/pioneers/bicyclists bayonet for the Karabijn No. 3 & No. 4
Baj 110 (h) = socket bayonet for the Karabijn No. 1 O.M.

Thanks for your patience,

Kilian
The Netherlands

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