Best Pistol of WW2

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
koczownik
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by koczownik » 04 Sep 2018 10:47

Plain Old Dave wrote:
03 Sep 2018 19:53
the 9mm isn't capable of fight stopping power, policemen went to the 10mm and 40 for good reason.
I don't know much about the subject, but are you sure police (I'm assuming you mean American police) didn't go to 10mm because they were being outgunned at lower calibres by your local criminals? I know that's one reason the US police started carrying Tommy guns back in the day; that country has much better armed criminals than a lot of the developed world. Police (when they use pistols) in countries like Poland, Ireland, Sweden, and China tend to carry 9mm because it suits their needs.

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by South » 04 Sep 2018 11:46

Good morning Dave,

I forgot much of this but if the "Smith N frame" represents the foundation for the Smith and Wesson Model 28, Highway Patrolman revolver in .357 magnum, it - and series - is the .45 Auto's equivalent for a revolver.

One aspect not frequently discussed with non-crew served military small arms is personal injury.

Whereas the high-quality M1911 series requires 2 hands to activate the machine (chamber a round) and downstream events, the high-quality revolvers....just pull the trigger. This I do remember and it's implanted in my memory.

The college commandos don't know people get injured, get sick and sometimes wear gloves.

I am NOT addressing major military small arms doctrine; just the individual soldier matter.

Your neighbor,
~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

Plain Old Dave
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Plain Old Dave » 04 Sep 2018 15:48

koczownik wrote:
04 Sep 2018 10:47
Plain Old Dave wrote:
03 Sep 2018 19:53
the 9mm isn't capable of fight stopping power, policemen went to the 10mm and 40 for good reason.
I don't know much about the subject, but are you sure police (I'm assuming you mean American police) didn't go to 10mm because they were being outgunned at lower calibres by your local criminals? I know that's one reason the US police started carrying Tommy guns back in the day; that country has much better armed criminals than a lot of the developed world. Police (when they use pistols) in countries like Poland, Ireland, Sweden, and China tend to carry 9mm because it suits their needs.
No. The 9mm-->10mm change was the eventual result of a 1986 Miami gunfight. FBI Special Agents kept shooting bad guys, bad guys kept shooting back. The conclusion was, in part, that the 9mm and "FBI load" 38 Special lacked terminal effectiveness.

koczownik
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by koczownik » 04 Sep 2018 16:47

Plain Old Dave wrote:
04 Sep 2018 15:48
No. The 9mm-->10mm change was the eventual result of a 1986 Miami gunfight. FBI Special Agents kept shooting bad guys, bad guys kept shooting back. The conclusion was, in part, that the 9mm and "FBI load" 38 Special lacked terminal effectiveness.
Fair enough, I don't know about this incident so I'll take your word for it. I stand by what I said earlier though; in my view there is no "best" firearm or calibre other than the one that is best for you personally. You said that you consider .45 Colt 1911 pistol to be the "finest" handgun of its generation, but police in Shanghai during interwar years considered it to be too heavy for their work, so they adopted smaller .380 calibre Colt 1908 pistol. Clearly, for them the "finest" pistol was something lighter. As someone closer to average Chinese stature, I can understand this. "Best" all depends on your own circumstances.

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Poot
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Poot » 04 Sep 2018 16:54

This thread is spinning off from military issue handguns to US law enforcement ammunition choices, but almost no agencies at the county or municipal level ever went to 10mm. Several went to .40S&W, but that is pretty uncommon in 2018.

Why? Two major factors. The first is the huge advancements in bullet design and effectiveness over the last 10-12 years. Long story short, there is almost no difference in the MEASURABLE terminal effects between the three combat calibers of 9X19, .40S&W, and 45ACP. 'Stopping power, hydrostatic shock' and other garbage has been debunked, in large part because it can't be proven or shown to be repeatable across a spectrum of any length. Caliber discussion usually devolve into a series of highly specific anecdotes that usually begin with, 'There was this one guy who...,' and go downhill from there. Stringently conducted testing proves how close the three calibers are now in terminal performance, and the difference is negligible. You would be well served with any of the three calibers, as long as you could skillfully place your shots where needed, and quickly enough.

The second reason is the composition of contemporary US LE agencies. Increasingly there are more women and members of particular ethnic groups than before. This is a simple demographic fact, with the result that many of these Officers or Deputies have smaller hands than their agency predecessors. A particular model of handgun chambered in 45ACP would be difficult for them to control due to hand size compared to the same make of handgun in 9mm. An example would be an agency that issues Glock 22s or 21s. An LEO with smaller hands generally has more difficulty controlling these, but it's not impossible. Compared to their performance on the range with a Glock 17, their time needed to meet the training standard is increased, translating to greater cost in the form of more hours spent in training and more ammunition expended. The ability to control the handgun in multiple shot strings of fire is increased with a smaller frame/caliber handgun. Since almost no agencies use single stack magazines, the wider grip on handguns is a universal now.
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

koczownik
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by koczownik » 04 Sep 2018 17:01

Poot wrote:
04 Sep 2018 16:54
The second reason is the composition of contemporary US LE agencies. Increasingly there are more women and members of particular ethnic groups than before. This is a simple demographic fact, with the result that many of these Officers or Deputies have smaller hands than their agency predecessors. A particular model of handgun chambered in 45ACP would be difficult for them to control due to hand size compared to the same make of handgun in 9mm.
This point I was trying to make when talking about Shanghai police. Sorry if I took the thread off topic, I will stop now.

Plain Old Dave
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Plain Old Dave » 04 Sep 2018 21:04

Still speaks directly to the point of fight stopping power. And the US military rejected the 9mm in favor of the 45 over 100 years ago. And all the talk about bullet design doesn't repeal Newton's Laws. Bigger, heavier bullets kill better. Always have, always will. This is why so many departments use the 40. Really, a 10mm Short.

But, back to topic. The 45 is a more effective stopper than the 9, and this has been empirical truth since the Thompson-Lagarde tests.

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Poot
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Poot » 04 Sep 2018 23:31

10mm is 10mm. 40S&W is 40S&W. They're not the same.

Let's compare apples to apples. The military uses Ball ammo, whereas stateside LE has a HUGE range of choices from commercial providers. When all of the good providers produce bullets with highly consistent performance across ALL three calibers, why wouldn't you opt for more ammo in the gun?
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Plain Old Dave
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Plain Old Dave » 05 Sep 2018 14:02

Poot wrote:
04 Sep 2018 23:31
10mm is 10mm. 40S&W is 40S&W. They're not the same.

They are PRECISELY the same. You can make 40s out of 10mm the same way you make 45 Schofield, 45 S&W, and 450 Colt in order out of 45 Colt brass. Or the same way people made 380 out of 9mm during the ammo shortage a few years back.

But, topic. The 9mm was conclusively proven inferior to the 45 when Edward the Seventh was stoll King.

As to capacity, high capacity 9mms are a Thing because of what Mssrs. Thompson and Lagarde discovered over 100 years ago, and what several FBI Special Agents discovered in 1986: 1 or 2 9mms just won't reliably stop a fight.

If you have to shoot more than once, you're not using enough gun.

1911, with honorable mention to the Webley Mk VI and US M1917 revolvers.

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Rob Stuart » 05 Sep 2018 22:24

The 9mm was conclusively proven inferior to the 45 when Edward the Seventh was stoll King.
If you're simply saying that the 9mm round has less hitting power that a .45 round, than I doubt that anyone would argue with that. But it certainly does not follow from this that a 9mm weapon will necessarily be inferior to a .45 weapon. The 9mm Sterling sub-machine gun, with a 30 round magazine, which I was trained to use while in the Canadian Army, was certainly not inferior to the M1911 simply because the latter fired .45 rounds. Yes, it's unfair to compare a SMG and a pistol, but the same issues apply in a pistol to pistol comparison. If we compare the M1911 to the 9mm Browning HP I was also trained to use, they would probably stack up as follows:

Hitting power: M1911 would win

Robustness/reliability: probably a tie

Weight: Browning would win

Magazine: Browning would win (13 rounds v. 7)

Recoil: I've never fired a M1911 but I gather its kick is worse than for the Browning

Time required to teach a recruit to shoot accurately: I would think that the Browning would win, given its lighter kick, etc, but I'll defer to people who have fire both

Ammo availability: If we're talking about a military force deployed overseas, 9mm rounds are going to be widely available. If your supply line to you home country is subject to delays and you run low in 9mm rounds, you can probably borrow some from an allied force or even use captured 9mm rounds. If you're the only army there with the M1911, you're going to be able to get .45 ammo only from the USA.

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by South » 06 Sep 2018 08:42

Good morning Poot,

Ref: "The military uses Ball ammo...";
Re: "stateside LE has a HUGE range of choices";

Using Dave's 1986 Miami gunfight to 1998 (20 years ago), the US military changed it's complexion. It now encompasses components with access to just about any ammo.

Illustrative: The Defense Department's Special Operations Command (SOC) has budgets somewhat independent from the overall Defense budget. Thus, if an Austrian .50 cal sniper rifle is sought, it can be purchased. A non-SOC military budget...the folks with signature control to buy things...an Austrian rifle ?! Think again.

More: Contractors are now a component well beyond the historic "contract surgeon" or a merchant vessel with a Letter of Marque. For example, Vinnell Corp has access to any ammo sought. Another name: MPRI - Military Professional Resources Inc. The first CEO was a retired Lt (3 star) General.

Add the foreign contractors. (Our Brit cousins are "foreigners" when it comes to the reconfiguration.)

I'm not mentioning the more recent and clearer defined arrangements.


~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

South
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by South » 06 Sep 2018 08:57

Good morning Rob,

Our colleague Dave is addressing a specific matter and not the tangents.

In practical terms Dave is focusing on a "typical" infantry-person (gender-neutral terminology).

Ref: "../reliability...";

The .45 auto is big and thus can convert beach sand to talcum powder. Smaller autos cannot match this. This is one of the reliability issues.

Ammo of the various types and categories. The common denominator is $$$ or other FOREX.

......

I've never fired the Sterling but did fire the German MP5 40mm SMG with the panoramic scope. They're on to something ! Besides working better than the domestic stuff here, it was a pleasure to shoot. I left the range thinking of the Corvair car versus the Mercedes. End of discussion.

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

Plain Old Dave
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Plain Old Dave » 06 Sep 2018 11:59

Magazine: Browning would win (13 rounds v. 7)
A moot point. The 9mm's lack of stopping power means you'll have to use more ammo to stop the same number of bad guys. A 9mm just isn't a reliable fight stopper with 1-2 slugs.
If you're the only army there with the M1911, you're going to be able to get .45 ammo only from the USA.
Another moot point. We supplied the majority of the small arms ammo for the Allies in both World Wars. Wherever There is, there's a fair chance they're using American ammo anyway.

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Poot
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Poot » 06 Sep 2018 16:35

Aside from this drifting back and forth between caliber discussions and handgun type discussions, the fact remains that the CURRENT (not specific 1986 FBI shoot-out anecdote) ballistic results show next to NO terminal performance differences. This is bolstered by street level data. It's not emotions, it's not gun preference or historical notes, its current data.

Has anyone else noticed how magazine capacity is being thrown out there as if it's a negative thing, but no one is discussing shot placement or training time??
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

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Poot
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Poot » 06 Sep 2018 16:55

Plain Old Dave wrote:
05 Sep 2018 14:02
Poot wrote:
04 Sep 2018 23:31
10mm is 10mm. 40S&W is 40S&W. They're not the same.

They are PRECISELY the same.
No, they're not.
The .40S&W uses a shorter case and achieves less MV than a 10mm. Think .38 Special compared to a .357 Magnum.
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

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