Best Pistol of WW2

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
Plain Old Dave
Member
Posts: 388
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 05:30
Location: East Tennessee

Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Plain Old Dave » 07 Sep 2018 17:01

Poot wrote:
06 Sep 2018 16:35
Aside from this drifting back and forth between caliber discussions and handgun type discussions, the fact remains that the CURRENT (not specific 1986 FBI shoot-out anecdote) ballistic results show next to NO terminal performance differences. This is bolstered by street level data. It's not emotions, it's not gun preference or historical notes, its current data.

Has anyone else noticed how magazine capacity is being thrown out there as if it's a negative thing, but no one is discussing shot placement or training time??
Newton's laws are still in effect last I checked. And 45 slugs weigh more and leave bigger holes.

M1911, with honorable mention to the 1917 Smith and Wesson and Colt revolvers and the Mk VI Webley.

User avatar
Poot
Member
Posts: 320
Joined: 29 Dec 2010 03:38

Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Poot » 09 Sep 2018 18:08

You're failing to distinguish between Ball ammo and more 'commercialized' offerings available for US LE. You're also failing to notice the advances in pistol ammunition terminal performance made over the last 12 years, regardless of bullet diameter and weight.
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

WilliamDS
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: 29 Sep 2015 01:53
Location: Camas, WA

Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by WilliamDS » 10 Sep 2018 02:14

There is a lot of faulty assumptions being made about ammunition, so here's the KE of the main rounds being discussed, with a couple of rifle rounds for comparison. Given velocities are measured at the muzzle of their standard service firearm (M9, M1911, Glock, M16 and M1 rifle).

9x19 M882 Ball
112 grain bullet @ 385 m/s
538j

45 ACP M1911 Ball
230 grain bullet @ 270 m/s
543j

40 S&W FBI Load
180 grain bullet @ 300 m/s
525j

10mm Norma Load (1st loading)
200 grain bullet @ 366 m/s
868j

5.56 NATO M855A1
62 grain bullet @ 860 m/s
1,889j

30-06 M2 Ball
151 grain bullet @ 835.2 m/s
3,413j

We can see that the kenetic energy of 9x19, 45 ACP and 40 S&W is roughly the same (within a spread of about 20j). This should mean roughly equivalent wounding potential. However, the 9x19 will penetrate better, hold more ammunition, and recoil less than the either two chamberings. 45 ACP shines in a suppressed setup because it is always subsonic, where a 9x19 looses it's velocity advantage (and thus it's energy parity) when it's loaded to subsonic velocities.

The myth of the "45 Manstopper" wasn't even built by the 45 ACP. It was the 45 Colt, re-introduced when the anemic 38 Colt rounds weren't working. In these cases, both of those rounds were built around black-powder safe pressure limits due to when they were introduced. That puts a solid upper limit on velocity, meaning the only way to increase KE is to increase the weight of the bullet. 45 ACP was loaded to imitate the 45 Colt ballistics. The case has room for much hotter loads, but most pistols in 45 Colt won't stand up to that.

If you really want more wounding potential in a pistol chambering, full house 10mm Auto is a nice, hot load, but it's still delivering only half the energy that a 5.56x45 round is, and one-quarter that of the 30-06 M2.

Ultimately, for the vast majority of people, and thus for the ideal service round, you want a soft recoiling round and lots of them. Any of the common pistol rounds will typically require multiple rounds to drop an attacker, so having 15 rounds on tap is far superior to 7.

South
Financial supporter
Posts: 3590
Joined: 06 Sep 2007 09:01
Location: USA

Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by South » 10 Sep 2018 07:23

Good morning William DS and all,

It's not the assumption but more so the presumption governing the environment. One required presumption is that the enemy is wearing a helmet and body armor, visible or not. This event is not occurring during daylight hours. Adverse weather might be involved.

It's less about wounding power and more so about eliminating the threat.

I do not understand a soft recoiling round and lots ... Time on station in this environment with a hand gun circa 2 -3 seconds under IDEAL conditions.

It must be noted that the environment of someone with a pistol or revolver encompasses an enemy of more than one (multiple targets) and armed with eg Kalashnikov rifles, Bull Pups, Tavors and,soon enough, Class 4 laser rifles.

Time is of the essence so as to leave the battle scene ASAP if not faster.

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 6459
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Apr 2019 17:41

Hi Guys,

I seem to remember that earlier in this thread it was claimed that in 1016 George Patton killed three Mexican Villistas with his revolver.

After reading Carlo d'Este's biography of Patton (pp.172-177), this claim appears to be a fiction.

Apparently Patton never claimed to have killed anyone during the incident and may not have done so as several of his men were firing at the same targets.

He used his rifle for part of the action. He did use his pistol but did not hit any man with it.

However, he did claim to have used it to bring down the horse of an escaping fugitive.

I guess this counts as an example of a pistol being used successfully in combat - just.

Cheers,

Sid

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 6459
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 30 Apr 2019 17:41

Hi Guys,

I seem to remember that earlier in this thread it was claimed that in 1916 George Patton killed three Mexican Villistas with his revolver.

After reading Carlo d'Este's biography of Patton (pp.172-177), this claim appears to be a fiction.

Apparently Patton never claimed to have killed anyone during the incident and may not have done so as several of his men were firing at the same targets.

He used his rifle for part of the action. He did use his pistol but did not hit any man with it.

However, he did claim to have used it to bring down the horse of an escaping fugitive.

I guess this counts as an example of a pistol being used successfully in combat - just.

Cheers,

Sid

Return to “Small Arms”