Best Pistol of WW2

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
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vladalex
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by vladalex » 23 Jan 2018 19:12

Gulo wrote:... talking with a man who really used pistols in a fight (because he was a partisan) so his opinion about pistols can be valuable.?...
Obviously, apart from the problem of dirt, not a technical problem of any gun in this world, you should compare these weapons from the accounts of those who use every day, all police forces in the world and detective agencies across the globe. That would be fair and objective. I do not find any relevant or interesting views of former partisans who hadnot known well this weapon even after it was end or troops guerilla who did not even know how to load it when he received the chance. The gun is used daily by gangs or thieves, which does not make them experts when in their old age it comes to their senses and began to tell stories ...

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Frederickvon » 24 Jan 2018 08:50

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi JTV,

Names, places, units, dates, documents, publications, etc., etc., all add to the verifiability and would be helpful.

Reported chance meetings by pseudonymous posters with untraceable individuals "years ago" at gunshops and guilds, and untitled war memoirs from "years back" don't give us much to go on and leave us with secondhand anecdotes of very limited value.

It is noticeable that though this thread has had 4,224 views so far, we haven't a single verifiable case of a pistol being used in combat put up on it.

I am as sure as you that some pistols must have been used in combat, but it is proving surprisingly difficult to find any verifiable cases.

Cheers,

Sid.
I think the same argument could be said of knives and bayonets, as well. They're secondary armaments by this point in time, of course it's going to be hard to compile statistical evidence of the use of this particular type of weapon.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articl ... -of-honor/
The World War II actions were equally divided between the Pacific Theater of Operations and the European area. The first event occurred in the Philippines during February 1942 when 1st/Lt. Willibald C. Bianchi died while leading his Filipino Scouts against the Japanese invaders. Almost a year later, Maj. Charles W. Davis wielded his Colt in leading men of the 25th Infantry Division on Guadalcanal in the Solomon Islands. Neither officer was known to have killed enemy troops in those actions, but the citations make it clear that both carried M1911s while performing “above and beyond the call of duty.”
Pistols, of course, are secondary weapons. Primary weapons will always be superior, but pistols had their useage -- particularly when it was not practical to use a full-size rifle or SMG.

Having a handgun on you could be very handy in CQC combat.

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Jan 2018 13:35

Hi Frederickvon,

Pistols were always secondary weapons of limited utility.

If I remember rightly, early dragoons in the 17th Century were the only class of troops ever primarily equipped with pistols. They developed a tactic called, I think, the "caracol", whereby squadrons of them would ride up to enemy infantry (then often armed with pikes) and fire their two pistols into their ranks. They would then ride away to reload while other waves of dragoons did the same. Having reloaded their pistols they would return to fire into the opposing infantry ranks again, and so on. However, it seems to have been of limited effectiveness, because very soon short muskets became their primary weapon and the pistols were relegated to secondary status.

This is the only time, as far as I am aware, that the pistol was ever a primary weapon.

I am sure a pistol could be useful in close quarter combat, but the submachine gun subverted that role in WWII. So I guess the pest pistol in WWII was the "pistol grip" on submachine guns!

I would suggest that the pistol was always primarily a civilian weapon and of little military value. Duelists, highwaymen, drive-by assassins and threatened householders have found it far more useful than soldiers ever have.

Cheers,

Sid.

P. S. See: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4Hc ... ls&f=false

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Feb 2018 18:36

Sid Guttridge wrote:It is noticeable that though this thread has had 4,224 views so far, we haven't a single verifiable case of a pistol being used in combat put up on it.
Lotvonen wrote:Veikko Moilanen
“Motti” in Tyrjä

Journal “Kansa Taisteli”, vol. 11/12,1958

The author was an AT gun squad leader, rank Corporal. He is describing the battle on 31.7. - 4.8. 1941 in Tyrjä. After the battle the Regiment adopted the name "Tyrjän rykmentti"....

...As the enemy tanks were detected I, being in the AT Company, was ordered to set out to destroy them. We pushed our 37mm AT gun along a road, heading for the tanks moving about on the same road. MG bursts fired by the tanks were whining above us. Our hearts were racing as we just about had the tanks within range as there was a loud thump. A tank had hit a mine. We ran closer quickly and surrounded the tank. Aspirant Könönen, one of our Platoon leaders, bravely mounted on the deck of the tank, opened a hatch and ordered the “tavarich” to get out, yet the chap stayed put. The Aspirant fired some rounds in the tank with his pistol, then we pulled a frightened man in the daylight, there was another one, dead next to the tank."
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 9&t=231758

Regards, Juha

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Gulo » 01 Feb 2018 22:50

vladalex wrote: Obviously, apart from the problem of dirt, not a technical problem of any gun in this world, you should compare these weapons from the accounts of those who use every day, all police forces in the world and detective agencies across the globe. That would be fair and objective. I do not find any relevant or interesting views of former partisans who hadnot known well this weapon even after it was end or troops guerilla who did not even know how to load it when he received the chance. The gun is used daily by gangs or thieves, which does not make them experts when in their old age it comes to their senses and began to tell stories ...
We are talking about a guy who is an expert, he has a collection of over 100 pistols, probably a typical soldier or policeman do not have more "pistol knowledge". We should not think so easily that he was stupid because he was not (in 1944) in a regular army. 90% of police officers who shot once a year during training are not the authorities on this topic. But OK, I'm not obsessed with Walther P38 and I do not want to argue any more.

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by vladalex » 02 Feb 2018 13:55

Hi,
I'm not obsessed with this gun.
I'm just a connoisseur's.
Before public forum to tell the stories of partisans (I have nothing against them) better than you document, especially since today is really easy.
I'll do it for you because you will definitely not spoil it.
Best regards,
Vladalex

Pistolet wz 35 Vis
Was used by following country :
1. Nazi Germany - Captured from World War II.
2. Poland
Total number build : 360.000
- 49.400 for Polish army
- More than 300.000 for german paratroopers and german police
After the invasion of Poland Fabryka worked for Wermacht. In fact a Polish copy of 9mm Browning GP. The design was generally based on American firearms inventor John Browning , as adapted by Piotr Wilniewczy and Jan Skrzypiński in 1930 at the Fabryka Broni-Arms Factory in Radom.

Walther P-38
Was used by following country :
• Argentina (trial purposes)
• Austria
• Chad
• Chile: Chilean Army.
• Independent State of Croatia
• Finland: Finnish UN peacekeeping forces.
• France: Replaced by the mid-1950s.
• Germany: P1 variant.
• Kingdom of Hungary
• Italy
• Lebanon
• Macedonia: P1 variant.
• Mozambique
• Nazi Germany
• North Vietnam
• Norway: Norwegian Armed Forces. Replaced by the P80 in 1985
• Pakistan:Used by Pakistan Navy and Pakistan Army Medical Corps. In small numbers purchased from West Germany
• Portugal: Portuguese Army.
• South Africa: Standard sidearm of SA Police.
• Sweden: HP variant.
• West Germany
• Kazakhstan
Total number build : More than one and half a million.
The Walther P-38: Godfather of the modern combat handgun, By Chris Eger, 1/17/2014, Guns.com
In the 1930s, the German military was quietly rebuilding. Even before Hitler came to power, the tiny Reichswehr had done extensive research into rearming their nation with the most modern of equipment. After Hitler came to power, this process got louder. One of the things the army wanted was a new handgun to replace the 1900-vintage Luger. While the Luger was a beautiful weapon, its toggle-action was prone to clogging, especially when dirty. It was also expensive, and every army in history had a budget.
Carl Walther, an up and coming firearms manufacturer who had just won a contract to supply his innovative PP and PPK pistols to the German police, threw a design from his workshop into the ring.
Pal Kiraly, a Hungarian firearms wonk living at the time in exile in Switzerland came up with a novel handgun he referred to as KD Danuvia. His gun was a short recoil auto-loader with a swinging lock under the barrel. The thing was, Kiraly introduced the design in 1929 at the beginning of the Depression and, with money drying up everywhere, it was never put into production.
Walther borrowed from Kiraly’s unproduced design, changed the delayed blowback bolt and controls, added the same type of trigger used on their PP series pistols, and came up with an entirely new gun. The Walther fired from a locked-breech with a double-action trigger, and was the first to use this arrangement, which is now almost standard on modern hammer-fired combat handguns. It debuted with several features that take for granted today such as a decocker safety lever, loaded chamber indicator, a slide release, a rebounding hammer, a floating 4.9-inch barrel and a static takedown lever that did not leave the frame. Each of these are important, but the decocker placed it in a category above the popular military semi-autos of its day such as the Colt 1911, the Browning Hi-Power, and the Tokarev TT-33, all of which often had to be carried on an empty chamber by soldiers for safety’s sake. Walther submitted their pistol to the German army for tests and it was adopted in 1938 as Pistole 38. As it would happen, this was but a year before World War 2.
Pushed into production in quantity by Walther at their Zella-Mehlis factory, when the war broke out the Germans urgently needed more than the company could ever produce. This led to subcontracting the gun out to Mauser (maker of the Luger!) and Spreewerk. In all over 1.2-million P38s were made for the Germans by the three plants from 1938-1946 when the end of the war halted production. They proved themselves so reliable in German service that whenever P-38s fell into Allied hands, they were pressed into frontline service against their former owners. The Luger was a collectable if captured, the Walther was a shooter.
With so many out there, these surplus guns were often used by cash strapped countries like France and Czechoslovakia until they were replaced in the 1960s. The Portuguese used WWII vintage pistols in their two decades long colonial wars in Angola and Mozambique (some claim the gun Rhodesian mercenary Mike Rousseau used in the original Mozambique drill was a Walther). Many a US serviceman carried personally owned or CIA issued surplus P-38’s in Vietnam. The South African police, never known for carrying junk weapons, issued variants of the P38 until just a few years ago.
When the West German government reestablished their Army in the 1950s, the call went out to Walther to put the P-38 back into immediate production. Since Carl’s old factory was now in Soviet-occupied East Germany, he built a new one in Ulm and went to work making pistols for both the military and police. From 1957-2000 nearly 600,000 more P-38s came off Walther’s line. Heck, the German military continued to issue the P38 (P1) as late as 1994—the old gun still had what it took to be the standard for the largest land army in Western Europe for over 50 years, comparable though not equivalent to the US reign of the 1911.
The P38 was so influential in modern combat handgun design that it’s almost impossible to talk about the subject without mentioning it. If you have only ever handled the Berettas, SIGs, and S&W’s and Rugers of today, then get introduced to a P38, chances are great that it will seem uncannily familiar, natural and comfortable.
The P38 was so influential in modern combat handgun design that it’s almost impossible to talk about the subject without mentioning it. If you have only ever handled the Berettas, SIGs, and S&W’s and Rugers of today, then get introduced to a P38, chances are great that it will seem uncannily familiar, natural and comfortable.

Bibliography :
Bishop, Chris. Guns in Combat. Chartwell Books, Inc (1998). ISBN 0-7858-0844-2.
Marchington, James (2004). The Encyclopedia of Handheld Weapons. Lewis International, Inc. ISBN 1-930983-14-X.
Reichert, Orv. "P.38 variations". Pistole38.nl. Retrieved November 23, 2012.

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 02 Feb 2018 19:39

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi JTV,

Names, places, units, dates, documents, publications, etc., etc., all add to the verifiability and would be helpful.

Reported chance meetings by pseudonymous posters with untraceable individuals "years ago" at gunshops and guilds, and untitled war memoirs from "years back" don't give us much to go on and leave us with secondhand anecdotes of very limited value.

It is noticeable that though this thread has had 4,224 views so far, we haven't a single verifiable case of a, pistol being used in combat put up on it.

I am as sure as you that some pistols must have been used in combat, but it is proving surprisingly difficult to find any verifiable cases.

Cheers,

Sid.
Think you are being intentionally dense. If you have never read of a pistol being used in WWII you obviously have not read much about it or personal/battle accounts of WWII. And no-one needs go perused their books for such instances go find them yourself . Here is ONE hint of a location, Hornfischer's "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" , There is an inclusion of a statement by a named TBF -Avenger pilot , who used his Navy 38 revolver against a Japanese Warship after running out of other ordinance/ammo. Did he kill anyone with it? Who knows ? But it is definitely a mention by someone using a pistol in combat. There are hundred's of others mentioned in accounts and such accounts can be assumed to be just a small fraction of actual uses of pistols in combat WWII. If you don't believe that,then for exampole, you must think German paratrooper NEVER used their pistols on Crete before they got to their weapons containers , simply because you have read no accounts of it occurring and/or have no memroy of being mentioned.

Why nobody has not sited a pistol account use is because such mentions are glossed over by most readers, and it would take someone with a perfect photographic memory to do so to remember exactly what page, where such might be mentioned in passing in one sentence , or tiny phrase in a sentence such as "used his pistol'. I gave you a source, it is not a specific page number. I am not going to go re-read the whole frigging book to find it , but one is there. :lol:

This demand of "using a pistol" bit, is like asking for an exact location of a quote by a soldier ,who used their shovel to dig a fox hole, or a helmet to bail out a boat. Those happened , doubtful anyone here can immediately site a page number off the top of their head about such an instance, but everyone has read of such instances(I would hope).
Your best bet to find a pistol account is (as mentioned by someone earlier and as I noted) is read books on the Battle of Crete, because so many Fallschirmjägerwere forced to do so because that is all they had before they got to their weapon containers if they found them at all.

BTW- IIRC Reinhard Heydrich used his pistol during his own assassination event. what kind? sadly escapes me now :(

In WWI, numerous accounts mention usage of pistols before machine guns were carried. Look at early observation aerial warfare.

For WWII, I won't go there but there are various pistol execution photos during the anti-partisan warfare on the Eastern Front and of course the Endlosung(forget keystroke for umlait). That was 'warfare" IMO, although it could also be considered murder.

And ,oh chit, just recalled, this request doesn't seem have to be during WWII :idea: :lol: and a 45 no less :lol:
And a picture is worth a 1000 words ,

Is this good enough for you :lol: and if you google those "two words " i wont' say which, you can find alot more
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sgt. Ronald H. Payne, a Tunnel Rat, bravely searches a tunnel's entrance during Vietnam War.
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 02 Feb 2018 19:59

Link to above http://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/ ... in-vietnam and a couple more photos
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 02 Feb 2018 20:03

WWII couple more and a rare sturm pistol of some sort https://www.pinterest.com/pin/517139969 ... 8/?lp=true
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 02 Feb 2018 20:11

Usage by a gun crew WWII https://www.pinterest.com/pin/794040978020398323/
Really a beautiful picture to capture typical usgae inWWII almost looks like a stylized painting but it is real
and too real to be just a "propaganda picture" either .
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 02 Feb 2018 20:27

Apologies , or rather no apologies, for not finding somebody actually shooting at a visible enemy with a pistol(which I figure will be your next demand :roll: :lol: for PROOF of pistols EVER being used in combat, as few would be crazy enough to be taking pictures at such short range. After this , you can say bayonets were never used in combat because, we aint got a stabbing account by anyone either :lol:

Just being "facetious" I think , no offence intended Sid , just had to take a different approach to your request

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 02 Feb 2018 21:57


It debuted with several features that take for granted today such as a decocker safety lever, loaded chamber indicator, a slide release, a rebounding hammer, a floating 4.9-inch barrel and a static takedown lever that did not leave the frame. Each of these are important, but the decocker placed it in a category above the popular military semi-autos of its day such as the Colt 1911, the Browning Hi-Power, and the Tokarev TT-33, all of which often had to be carried on an empty chamber by soldiers for safety’s sake.
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Bibliography :
Bishop, Chris. Guns in Combat. Chartwell Books, Inc (1998). ISBN 0-7858-0844-2.
Marchington, James (2004). The Encyclopedia of Handheld Weapons. Lewis International, Inc. ISBN 1-930983-14-X.
Reichert, Orv. "P.38 variations". Pistole38.nl. Retrieved November 23, 2012.
Hi Valadex,

Whichever one of these guys who wrote
but the decocker placed it in a category above the popular military semi-autos of its day such as the Colt 1911, the Browning Hi-Power, and the Tokarev TT-33, all of which often had to be carried on an empty chamber by soldiers for safety’s sake.
Either does not know these pistols at all or is just a zealot for the German P-38 pistol . The thumb safety of the Browning design makes them perfectly safe to carry locked and loaded. And for someone to say a "decocking lever" places the P-38 above the Browning design is as I mentioned a fool or a zealot or a foolish zealot. A decocking lever is a safe way to carry a locked and loaded Walther. However by doing so makes that first shot double action/longer pull , which inherently makes for higher chance of a "miss ", than any post-positioned thumb safety single action/short pull operation of the Browning. That(higher chance of first shot miss ) does not make for a better weapon in any book, except theirs.

The other things he mentions are largely frivolous or untrue.
1. loaded chamber indicator? frivolous/not really useful
2. Slide release? The 'slide lock" on a Browning does this
3.rebounding hammer ? Means it doesn't have a half-cock setting, less is more I guess.
4. Floating barrel? Frivolous in a pistol for its purpose to increase accuracy and was just an army demand not some novel wepon engineering feat to begin with.
5.Static take down lever. So it is an extra part and mechanism in addition to the gun also having a slide lock, rather than just a single slide lock pin of the Browning that does both things in one simple piece rather than several , I am impressed. More is better here when it comes to a gun having more buttons/levers/parts that can break LOL

They fail to mention one of the most notable things a Browning Hi-power has compared to the Walther P-38 becuase it really pops their Hindenburg.

BULLETS. I guess less is more this time because somehow having 8 bullets is better than 13. Or maybe a single column weapon is easier to grip with a little hand. Maybe it is, but the thing is I really don't recall the P-38 being significantly thinner than a Hi Power. The P-38 IIRC might be slightly "fatter' in the grip than a Browning and certainly fatter than a 45., which I do recall first time I handled a P-38 was puzzling for a single column weapon with only 8 bullets, It is fat enough where it should be a double column feed and more bullets. No excuse there. The holster was a beast too. Now the Walther does weigh less IIRC than a Browning, so maybe that is where its greatness should come from , but I think it is just less bullets weigh less. And it weighs less than a 45 , and there I guess the P-38's littler(sp? rhymes with Hitler :lol: ) bullets explains its German superiority there too. You might want to put littler (sp?) holes in some people, 38cal holes rather than 45 cal, IDK.

But back to number of bullets. I guess the increase in capacity of the P-88 was an acknowledgement of the P-38's uberalles superiority, But I'll leave it to that 'weapon" expert with the published book.
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by LineDoggie » 03 Feb 2018 05:34

vladalex wrote:Hi,


Each of these are important, but the decocker placed it in a category above the popular military semi-autos of its day such as the Colt 1911, the Browning Hi-Power, and the Tokarev TT-33, all of which often had to be carried on an empty chamber by soldiers for safety’s sake.
EXCEPT the M1911 was Designed to be carry fully cocked on safe by the soldier and as such was perfectly safe.

M1911 series had 3 safety features, besides the Manual safety catch-
Grip safety- Even off safe unless the grip safety was depressed the handgun would NOT fire

Hammer half cock notch- IF the weapon was dropped with a loaded chamber and the fully cocked notch sheared off the hammer would fall to the half cock notch and NOT Fire.

Disconnector- If the slide is not fully in battery the pistol will not fire. In other words if the slide is pressed back as little as 1/8 inch the disconnector will not allow the hammer to drop.


John Moses Browning wasn't stupid. he purposely designed the 1911 to be carried round chambered and on safe
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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vladalex
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by vladalex » 03 Feb 2018 15:08

OK, gentlemen,
My goal I accomplished.
It was that, the title of the topic as " The best pistol of WWII " (not revolver) to disobey any stories told at the fireside in winter or memories. The collectors impressions (which obviously are directly impressed by the purchase price, which in most cases it has nothing to do with the technical quality of the object, but the quality of preservation) are not quotted.
I also want to remind you that although our forum is called AHF, my personal requirements about debates on a subject it is not necessarily historical. If weapons of any kind are the subject, it is obvious that the technical characteristics in relation to any other weapons impressions , are the only ones that really matter. An comparison to do with all the above, if 100 people climbed to the top of a mountain surrounded entirely by a forest, each on his way up on top of each will tell a completely diferităpe way that what followed. Obviously view from the top will be the same for everyone…
I want to believe that we have brought the discussion on a road linked more technical than the legends and memories of times they passed over us.
I'm pleased about.
This time our subject has turned into a debate.
The last two posts are opinions welcome, and I want as much as possible more opinions about this subject. It is exceptional that any ones which post on a website , to control and manage their emotions when posting. Even if they do not know what else write others or hear these stories for firs-timet, thinking that no others can not know what they wrote, finally everyone will be winners ...
Regards,
Vladalex

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Feb 2018 20:49

Today's news:
BEIRUT -- The Russian Defense Ministry has confirmed that a Russian Su-25 warplane crashed in Syria and that the pilot was killed in fighting on the ground.
...
A Syrian militant in the area told The Associated Press that the Russian pilot was shot and killed when he resisted capture by opening fire from his pistol on the militants who tried to capture him alive.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... syria.html

Regards, Juha

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