Erma Vollmer SMG

David Lehmann · Post by **David Lehmann** » 16 May 2003 12:46

Hello,

Does someone have a good (profile) picture of this SMG (not a pic where it is in use, but a pic with the SMG alone) ?
And the characteristics ... 32 rounds magazine I guess ?

Here is a photo in French hands (it was not used by Heer/SS units I think) :

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 16 May 2003 15:40

I think that particular SMG is "9mm Erma EMP" which SS troops used during the early stages of war. "Vollmer VPG" SMG don't have a cover over barrel.

David Lehmann · Post by **David Lehmann** » 16 May 2003 16:49

I do not agree since I have several photos of this same SMG (with a cover over the barrel) in french Corps Franc units ... and the Erma Vollmer was the only one they used ... it was the only troops using it and it was the single german SMG used by the French Army in 1940.
In fact they were from a stock directed from Germany to nationalist Spain which had been intercepted in the 30's. So I am pretty sure that this is an Erma Vollmer. I am just looking for a good profile pic of it to include it in a weapon database document I am writing.

David

Erik E · Post by **Erik E** » 16 May 2003 17:21

Not the best photo.......

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 16 May 2003 17:43

Looks still Erma EMP to me...

David Lehmann · Post by **David Lehmann** » 16 May 2003 18:28

Hi,

Wow what that for an old doc Erik ?

thanks !
Harri would you have a pic of the MPE ? perhaps are they quite the same weapons ?

"German Maschinenpistole Erma (MPE) Submachinegun :
Designed by Heinrich Vollmer in the late 1920 's, the Erma was used until 1938 when replaced by the MP38. The MPE has a barrel jacket with long slots, a 32 shot detachable box magazine entering from the left, and a unique wooden pistol grip in the stock. The weapon was used in the Spanish Civil War."

It should be that ...

So I think with are both speaking about the same SMG

Erma Vollmer SMG and Erma MPE are the same thing I guess but the one the French had is probably an early version

Or the French called PM Erma Vollmer the SMG the german called MPE.

David

Erik E · Post by **Erik E** » 16 May 2003 20:41

Wow what that for an old doc Erik

It`s a part of a evaluation report made by the "Heereswaffenamt"

So I think with are both speaking about the same SMG

There is also a little note here that it is the same as the German "MP Erma"
But the French version has a different attachment for the sling......

This seems to be the same weapon.

Erik E

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 16 May 2003 21:23

Unfortunately I can't offer any photos now, but it definetely looks exactly like the same weapon. But according to my files it is "Erma Machinen Pistole" (EMP), not MPE. Or at least that's the way the few Finnish EMPs are called. German SS-Division "Nord" had also these in 1941. Almost the whole division was equipped using "Beutewaffen", for example Norwegian, Czech and Polish weapons.

And French had these too? That's new info to me. Was the calibre the same (9 mm Para) or something else?

David Lehmann · Post by **David Lehmann** » 16 May 2003 21:42

Yes also 9x19 mm ... In fact only 3000 of these SMGs had been captured, they were normaly destinated to Spain during the spanish civil war. The French issued them to the Corps Francs, special forces making long range recon and raids in the german lines during the 1940 campaign.

David

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 16 May 2003 23:44

Finnish Erma EMPs were captured from German troops in late 1944 so they were for sure used by German troops.

David Lehmann · Post by **David Lehmann** » 17 May 2003 01:23

Yes obviously ...

MAS38 SMG
The MAS38 had been developed but not really put into production in time for the 1940 campaign. It was thus extremely rare, with only individual weapons seeing service rather than systematic issue to particular unit types.

Erma Vollmer SMG (MPE)
This one was the most common SMG used by the French Army in 1939-40. They actually were seized from Spanish Republican troops interned in France at the end of the Spanish Civil War. I think they had been purchased normally from German firms by the Spanish government prior to the outbreak of the Spanish civil war. There was also a swathe of other German SMGs: Bergmanns and so forth. Some or all of this stock could in fact have been supplied to Spanish fascist forces and captured by the Republicans. At any rate, 3250 MPE were counted but due to lack of magazines only 750 were issued. The most common place to find this weapon was with the Corps Francs.

Other SMGs used in small numbers : MP28, MP34, Steyr and even 150 Suomi M31

After 1940 the French also used many US and UK equipments thus thompson and Stent SMGs.

varjag · Post by **varjag** » 17 May 2003 11:52

Thanks Panzermeyer for this interesting info. I - was as surprised as Harri to hear about the EMP's in French service - never heard of before. And that so few MAS38 were in the field that could be discounted....Aside from the subject - is the MAS38 still used by the gendarmerie in France - there were some seen on TV-piccies in late 80-ies?

David Lehmann · Post by **David Lehmann** » 17 May 2003 12:00

Event some Thompson M1921 and M1928 were used by the French Army in 1940 ... As far as I know the last time the MAS38 was used is during the Indochina ... than came the famous MAT49 and it is this one that you have probably seen on TV.

Erik E · Post by **Erik E** » 17 May 2003 17:12

Event some Thompson M1921 and M1928 were used by the French Army in 1940

Are you sure about the M1928?

Erik

Harri · Post by **Harri** » 17 May 2003 17:28

Panzermeyer wrote:Other SMGs used in small numbers :... and even 150 Suomi M31

Really?! That's even more strange! From where have you got these? As far as I know they were not bought directly from Finland, but you can never know. It was also used and produced in Sweden, Denmark and Switzerland.

Suomi m/31 SMG was already selected for the British Army in the late 1930's but due to obvious reasons Thompson SMGs were ordered instead of it. Perhaps Finnish SMGs were also evaluated/tested in France? 8)

Do you (or anyone else) have anything on Finnish SMGs in French use (like photos)?