Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao
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Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao » 19 Aug 2017 15:09

Did German army or SS use 0.45 or 0.455 revolver or magazine pistol during WW II as a side arm. After WW II this calibre was banned in most of the countries being an highly fatal weapon . The tactics of armed forces after WW II was to injure the soldiers more than killing them. Injuring a soldier will call for more logistics and maintenance in armies.The weapon calibre became smaller for small arms after WW II.

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SVaaka
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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by SVaaka » 19 Aug 2017 16:25

No. Why would they?

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Richie B
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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by Richie B » 19 Aug 2017 17:53

The Germans had a small quantity of .45 Kongsberg Colts from Norway but I'm not sure if they saw much/any combat use.

Who banned .45 and .455 calibre rounds ? The main user - the US continued to use the .45 Colt for a long time after WW2.

The .455 was on the way out, although still used, in WW2.

The idea of injuring rather than killing the enemy - really ?. I certainly don't think that applied in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and the Gulf Wars.

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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by South » 21 Aug 2017 20:24

Good afternoon Richie B and all,

A technical point;

A couple of years ago there was a re-introduction of the .45 pistol on a limited scale.

Based on negative field reports from users of the 9mm pistol, the USMC developed specifications for a new, even more improved version of the famous ".45". From memory, the port was modified and also a couple of other mods. I heard the Marines acquired 500 of these new pistols.

~ Bob
eastern Virginia,

Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao
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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao » 22 Aug 2017 15:43

I agree that Geneva conventions do not specify any calibre of a weapon not to be used. however the weapon such as 0.50 calibre machine gun is recommended to be firing at equipment and not at enemy soldiers.However in the past wars and the present conflicts around the globe this has not been fully adhered to. Secondly small arms such as hand guns, rifles, sub machine guns that cause much enlarged wounds in an enemy soldier are also to be restricted. The conventions are mutually accepted regulations. however many countries violate these too as it happened in WW II and later on. 0.45 small arms fire heavier projectile mostly lead bullets with rimmed cartridges that fit into revolvers such as U.S. Smith and wessen, Webley and Scott and few more. Self loading semi automatic hand guns use rimless cartridges with copper jacketed bullet.Lead bullet invariably on hitting the target deforms and thus results in very large wound to the victim there by causing serious damage to the surrounding nerves, blood vessels etc. Pistol ammunition is not expected to travel over long distances and bullet invariably gets embedded in the body thereby dissipating its entire Kinetic energy into the body. However rifle ammunition travels larger distances and can Pass through the victim at reasonable distances. the wisdom of using such ammunition has been left to the users and some nations probably reduced such weapons and usage, In some of the countries such hand guns were handed over to police forces while army, navy and air forces switched over to 9 mm pistols self loading type.Revolvers of course remained personal weapons due to limited fire power. Another important aspect is making the weapon lighter for combat duties. 7.62 SLr rifles used of late by many countries is the result of such weight reduction design. machine guns also predominant with 7.62 calibre. Medium machine guns which is a battle equipment has been made for bigger calibre too and being used. Thus using larger calibre small arms against enemy personnel is to be desisted and voluntarily some countries worked in that direction. However as stated by some illustrious readers larger calibre weapons were used in Vietnam war, Korean War, Gulf war and other recent wars raging in Middle East and Africa. It is up to human ethics and as stated by some one , in love and war all is fair..

Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao
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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao » 23 Aug 2017 14:07

Mr South has remarked that U.S. Army has reintroduced 0.45 hand guns a couple of years ago in few numbers and Us Marines have acquired about 500 such weapons. this indicates that such weapons that were once widely used by U.S. Army had surely been withdrawn earlier.In this context my earlier comment us relevant too.9 mm self loading Hand guns have inherent short coming of cartridge case getting stuck during ejection.Pistol does not fire at that moment till the empty shell is removed from the port and the weapon is re cocked. These are embarrassing situations to the firer and during combat conditions could cost some ones life. it is Ok if it happens at a training firing range. Based on such reports probably US has changed the policy.In order to continue with self loading Hand guns, the new versions have wider slots with some more modifications.

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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by JTV » 23 Aug 2017 18:17

No offense, but I find your view on the matter quite beculiar. Large caliber revolver cartridges mentioned originate from black powder ammunition era and had lead bullets simply because that was the normal bullet design when they were introduced and quite low muzzle velocities produced by that sort of ammunition did/does not require a jacketed bullet.

The treaties involving the matter are not from Geneva Convention, but Declaration of St. Petersburg from year 1868 and Hague Convention from year 1899. The key point is that originally the banned thing was exploding ammunition in calibers less than 37-mm, which was later developed as ban for use of expanding (small arms) bullets against soldiers in war.

However in whole, these treaties seem to have made very little impact to large caliber pistol and revolver ammunition. The only real case that I am aware of being effected by this was with British .455 Webley revolver cartridge. Specically Mark IV .455 Webley ammunition introduced in year 1912 had a flat-nosed wadcutter bullet design, because its predecessor Mark III (introduced in year 1898) was considered as likely breech of Hague Convention since its hollowpoint bullet design could be considered as expanding bullet.

US military replaced Colt 1911 & 1911A1 pistols mainly with M9 pistol (Beretta 92FS) because by 1980's they were old-fashioned, existing pistols were worn-out (what I remember production for US military had ended in year 1945) and due to their technical design manufacturing new pistols would have been expensive. Not to mention that NATO had already standardized to "NATO 9mm" as pistol cartridge. US Marines have been using in limited scale MARSOC and 1911 M45 pistols - at least the latter of these is apparently individually hand-fitted and yet about to at least partially replaced by Glock 19 pistols regardless of M45 being intoroduced just five years ago. This while straight out of a box Heckler & Koch Mark 23 in .45 ACP has been used by US Special Operations Command (SOCOM) since mid 1990's and apparently remains highly popular.

Jarkko
Last edited by JTV on 24 Aug 2017 05:26, edited 2 times in total.

South
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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by South » 23 Aug 2017 22:56

Good afternoon Col Dr KPR,

Ref: "Revolvers ... due to limited fire power";

This is really not correct as to fire power. On a limited scope, during the Vietnam War, the US military used the .357 revolver. It does have fire power and when the 7 pound trigger pull is modified, it is somewhat fast.

~ Bob
Virginia, USA

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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by South » 23 Aug 2017 23:14

Good afternoon Jarkko

After 1945, circa the Vietnam War, the US introduced the Cold Commander pistol. It was a smaller version of the 1911 / 1911 A1.

In the 1980s, there was a "buy NATO' campaign. The Beretta M9 pistol was acquired with the main reason being that it was from NATO Italy. Beretta's US office was in Maryland.

The Beretta M9 pistol shared the same procurement philosophy as the US acquisition of the Harrier jump jet. The Harrier had Rolls Royce engines and the "buy NATO" doctrine got more favorable publicity because "everyone" knew about the famous British Rolls Royce car.

I'm going to add a few sentences here for other AHF participants probably not familiar with a couple of abbreviations / contractions you wrote. MARSOC = Marine Corps Special Operations Command (the other military services also have their own individual special operations commands). USSOC is the overall Defense Department's "SOC".

The individual service's (eg USMC) SOC and the DOD's SOC have separate procurement budgets from their respective service budgets (and a separate weapons budget for USSOC). Thus, they can purchase non-standard stuff. I must stop here because much politics is involved other than to say Pratt and Whitney and General Electric screamed
that the US would be overrun by enemies if their engines weren't used. The small arms companies did the same screaming. End of my contribution.

~ Bob
Virginia, USA

Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao
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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao » 24 Aug 2017 10:00

Dear Mr Bob, Ref. limited fire power .. Revolvers
I meant limited fire power of a revolver is due to the number of cartridges it can hold to its full. Mostly revolvers have five or six chambers the later being very common. self loading magazine pistols can accommodate much more rounds say twenty to its full. Any how pistols or revolvers can be effective only during close quarter combat situations, Such as in built up areas.With respect to killing power as mentioned by you, 0.357 bore or even 0.32 weapon would be fatal at close quarters.

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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by South » 24 Aug 2017 22:33

Good afternoon Col Dr KPR,

Yes, the .357 Magnum cartridge is powerful.

Of course, as you mention, these weapons are for close quarter.

Do note that if the enemy is wearing body armor, the smaller cartridges frequently will not neutralize the threat. The powerful cartridges do, even if not fatal, there is time to escape. Sometimes the body armor would consist of 2 partly-filled sand bags slung over the neck and onto the chest.

Most of these situations involve the discharge of 1 or 2 rounds at most.

~Bob
Virginia, USA

Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao
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Re: Small arms.. Pistol revolver and magazine pistol 0.45 and 0.455

Post by Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao » 27 Aug 2017 16:22

Thanks Mr south

Colonel Dr K Prabhakar Rao ( retd)

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