Help identifying weird WWII casing

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BunkerOwner2
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Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by BunkerOwner2 » 31 Jan 2020 12:53

I need help with identifying a rather weird casing found at a special location in The Hague.

Basic information:
- Its a 7.92×57mm casing.
- Its not magnetic.
- It is painted in a dark green color (well preserved).
- Stamps: '99' and 'F', seems to be a '7' there to.

Options:
- Mauser casing for the K98 (7.92×57mm)
- Rifle M95M or M95/24 (7.92×57mm)

Users of the M95:
- Nazi Germany: Used by German police during World War II. There was a large SS/Police presence in The Hague.
- The Netherlands: They used them during the second world war. Most of the German m95's were captured from the Dutch.

Can anyone shed more light on this one?
Huls_zijkant.jpg
Huls_achterkant.jpg
Huls_achterkant2.jpg
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Poot
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by Poot » 01 Feb 2020 01:03

Are you certain it's 7.92X57, and not 8X56R?

Pat
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LineDoggie
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by LineDoggie » 01 Feb 2020 03:12

NOT a 7.92X57 cartridge as its rimmed, the Mauser cartridges design is rimless.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... x-8x57.jpg

Now the 8X50R and 8X56R are rimmed IIRC the dutch used a 6.5X53R also rimmed.

"F" could stand for
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Poot
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by Poot » 01 Feb 2020 07:00

I agree with LineDoggie, that definitely appears to be a rimmed case. OP, can you take measurements of the length of the case and the interior diameter of the case mouth? Bear in mind that case mouths flare to a larger dimension when the case is fired due to expansion of the metal.

If you aren't able to take measurements, try taking a full length photo of the case, but outside where a shadow can't be cast like in the above photos. Overcast, cloudy days work perfectly for this.

Best,
Pat
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by BunkerOwner2 » 01 Feb 2020 13:52

Thank you both Pat and LineDoggie!
I'm going to see if I can get it measured correctly today and I will let you know.

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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by BunkerOwner2 » 01 Feb 2020 16:41

Poot wrote:
01 Feb 2020 07:00
I agree with LineDoggie, that definitely appears to be a rimmed case. OP, can you take measurements of the length of the case and the interior diameter of the case mouth? Bear in mind that case mouths flare to a larger dimension when the case is fired due to expansion of the metal.

If you aren't able to take measurements, try taking a full length photo of the case, but outside where a shadow can't be cast like in the above photos. Overcast, cloudy days work perfectly for this.

Best,
Pat
Ok, this is what I could measure.
Enough to pinpoint this one?

.
8x56R_Mannlicher.png
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Poot
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by Poot » 01 Feb 2020 21:03

I'll take measurements of one of my own fired cases (I reload for this cartridge) later today and let you know.

Best,
Pat
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by BunkerOwner2 » 01 Feb 2020 22:39

Poot wrote:
01 Feb 2020 21:03
I'll take measurements of one of my own fired cases (I reload for this cartridge) later today and let you know.

Best,
Pat
Great!
Thanks Pat.

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Poot
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by Poot » 02 Feb 2020 02:34

BunkerOwner2,
Well, I guess I was a bit more efficient than I gave myself credit for ;) Unfortunately, I had already re-sized all of my 8X56R cases, which returns them to proper specifications for reloading, and doesn't reflect the dimensions of a fired case. I have photos of one of my cases in a caliper after cleaning and re-sizing the case. Note that your recorded dimensions above don't exactly match mine, but my case is a commercial case made in Serbia, not military surplus. I would expect some small differences, and the length of your case (55mm) would confirm the caliber as 8X56R.

By the time of WWII, the majority of rifles and carbines chambered for this caliber were M.95 Mannlichers, and would be used in weapons that had been modified in the interwar period by the Austrian Republic or Hungary. Austria marked rifles that had been converted from 8X50R to 8X56R with a large 'S' on the barrel shank. Hungary used a large 'H' instead. I have another photo of one of my Austrian M.95's and a Hungarian 31M that are marked accordingly.

The vast majority of the Austrian rifles were sold to Bulgaria after the Anschluss, with Austria retaining only a small number. Germany definitely seized a number of these, as period photos show them in use by second- and third-grade units. The Netherlands is certainly an interesting destination for one of these, especially considering that the Germans used many Dutch Mannlichers, which as you know were chambered for a different cartridge, the 6.5X53R. Your find of this case would certainly confirm the use of 8X56R Mannlichers in the Netherlands in WWII, and is very interesting!

*EDIT* I attempted to attach my photos, but they are too large. If you'd like, contact me by PM and provide an email address and I'll be happy to send them to you.

Best,
Pat
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by BunkerOwner2 » 02 Feb 2020 15:40

Hai Pat,

Thank you for your time and answer!
Indeed, the Germans (mainly police units) used the Dutch M.95's.
And indeed, since its not a 6,5mm casing, that is ruled out.

I see only one other option:

- It came with German troops from the Hungary/Austria region

- The Hague housed many different SS troops, many who came from other regions
- Seyss Inquart wanted as many Hungarian/Austrian SS soldiers, he didn't trust the Dutch SS volunteers
- There were specific locations in the Hague that were guarded by Hungarian SS soldiers.

There were several SS units in the region, specifically many SS police units.

It might be possible it came to the Netherlands with those units?

This one is found on a very special location, and when I can pinpoint this casing, it will be one with a very 'dark' past (used in a execution).

I will send you a DM.

Kind regards

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Poot
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by Poot » 02 Feb 2020 19:43

Email with photos sent.

There are actually a number of period photos that show Wehrmacht and even 6th Fallschirmjager troops with Dutch Mannlichers. There is a set of excellent and clear photos from Soest showing Luftwaffe and Fallschirmjager personnel surrendering many rifles and carbines of varying types to the British. Among the rifles are some Dutch Mannlicher rifles.

Distribution of captured firearms was not made on the basis of ethnicity of units, but instead what was available in that theater of operations. If SS personnel of Austrian extraction were operating in the Netherlands and used Austrian Mannlichers, it was only due to availability. As a whole, captured weapons (Beutewaffen) were fielded primarily by non-combat units, due in large part to the supply chain's ability to keep appropriate ammunition and spare parts available.

Besides uniformed SS personnel there were probably SD units operating in the area in question, especially considering their typical role in combatting resistance types.

Best,
Pat
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by BunkerOwner2 » 04 Feb 2020 16:34

Sorry for my late reply (will reply to your email also, thanks again!).

All Dutch Beutewaffen were 6,5mm Mannlicher?

There were many Austrian-Hungarian troops in the Hague, also a lot of them who went to the Eastern-front first. And it was one of the few locations in the Atlantic wall that was commanded by the SS, not the Wehrmacht. There was also a 2.500 man strong force of SS Polizei (Waffenshule-III) and there were SS Totenkopfstandarte units. So I presume they brought the 8mm Mannlicher with them perhaps...

I think the Steyr Gewehr M95 (8x56mm) is one of the options. Trying to figure out weaponry of the units involved, but it is already hard to find which troops were involved in the actual executions in The Hague.

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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by Poot » 04 Feb 2020 18:36

-Correct, all Dutch Mannlichers that were used in the Netherlands at that time were chambered in 6.5X53R. They were first produced at Steyr starting in 1896 and were then produced exclusively at Hembrug in the early 1900's - 1940.

-There were no Austro-Hungarian troops per se in the Netherlands in WWII, that would describe troops from the Austro-Hungarian Empire only. Germany's troops did include some personnel of Austrian origin, but that doesn't mean they were issued Austrian arms. They would have used what was in the supply chain, as Waffen-SS troops of Austrian extraction operating on the eastern front would have used German made weapons along with everyone else. German troops along the Atlantic Wall used all different kinds of weapons. Some were German made, while many others used captured French, British, Belgian and Dutch weapons. There have even been some Soviet weapons that were used by German troops in France. You should take a look at the 'Germans with captured weapons' thread here on the Small Arms sub-forum, which provides a huge number of examples of captured foreign weapons in use by German troops.

-The M.95 Mannlicher rifle, carbine or stutzens (the same weapon, just differing in length and sling arrangement) is actually the only possibility for what fired this cartridge. Nothing else in use at that time was chambered for that caliber except the 35M rifle in use by the Hungarian Army and Gendarmerie, neither of which deployed to the Netherlands. Bulgaria also used it, but had no presence or troop commitment in the Netherlands.

-I'd also suggest asking a question in the SS and Polizei sub-forum here regarding the executions in question. It's entirely possible that the Heer itself was involved, but that sort of thing was typically undertaken by the SS, Polizei or SD.

Pat
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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by peeved » 09 Feb 2020 17:32

Green cases often denote subsonic cartridges for silenced weapons.

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Re: Help identifying weird WWII casing

Post by Knouterer » 13 Feb 2020 18:29

I think it's most likely Dutch and not Austrian. The Dutch found that the 6.5 mm cartridge as used in their Mannlicher rifles (and later Lewis M.20 LMGs) was not suitable for medium/heavy machine guns, and introduced a 7.92x57 mm rimmed cartridge for their Schwarzlose machine guns in 1925. Some Maxim and Vickers machine guns were converted to that cartridge too.

As no other country used it, this cartridge is relatively unknown and it was of course not interchangeable with the German 7.92x57 rimless cartridge.
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