This question relates to all nations involved in the war, I juast couldn't find a thread that was more suitable. I wonder if any snipers brought their own hunting rifle to war? The reasons could be familiarity, lack of good sniepr rifes or simply that their own rifles were better guns. One imagine game keepers and upper class types used to big game hunting at home or in the colonies may have considered this. Maybe someone brought their big-game rifles to use them as long range sniper rifles. Perhaps this was easier to pull off in special forces units were soldiers had more choice in selecting weapons.
Does anyone know anything about this?
Civilian hunting rifles used by snipers?
Re: Civilian hunting rifles used by snipers?
On the spot, i dont know any sure answers.
But lets us think.
Historically it was of course done. So for example, the american Kentucky long rifles milismen made piecemeal of the british musketer equipped infantry. Or the Boers shooting down the british.
We can say, thorugh the 1800 the best civilian hunting rifles were better than the standard army rifles. Shoot longer distances and with good accuracy.
But it turned around ca 1900 when the Mauser and its sibling become common. Mauser is used by many sport shooters into this day. The sovjet renown snipers used almost everyone the Nagant-Nosin, which is a sibling. The germans used the K98 sometimes for snipery too. The british lee enfield a little heavier and with somewhat bigger calibre, but the same.
So, no point with using civilian weapons for sniper. Unless there are no weapons, for example, partisans.
It must have happened, but no big point if you can get any decent Mauser with a tube sight. Or even without - Häyhä didnt used optical sights although he surely could get if he wished.
Also, big game rifles, although probably useful in some circumstances, werent made to shoot exactly long distances, but get through the thick skin and give enough of shock waves to kill big animals...
So using this as a basic panzer breaking weapons, say on armored cars or small light tanks (common in the beginning of the war, esp with italians but also russians) - yes, they could be useful. And I even think I saw this mentioned.
But for snipers?
IF so, a big game hunting rifle so perhaps on special occassions for special purposes. Say a general travelling in an partly armored car.
But I could imagine such big game rifles could be decently effective as flak against low flying planes... Surely much better than using the usual infantry rifles. And I presume they could be deployed in THIS role.
But lets us think.
Historically it was of course done. So for example, the american Kentucky long rifles milismen made piecemeal of the british musketer equipped infantry. Or the Boers shooting down the british.
We can say, thorugh the 1800 the best civilian hunting rifles were better than the standard army rifles. Shoot longer distances and with good accuracy.
But it turned around ca 1900 when the Mauser and its sibling become common. Mauser is used by many sport shooters into this day. The sovjet renown snipers used almost everyone the Nagant-Nosin, which is a sibling. The germans used the K98 sometimes for snipery too. The british lee enfield a little heavier and with somewhat bigger calibre, but the same.
So, no point with using civilian weapons for sniper. Unless there are no weapons, for example, partisans.
It must have happened, but no big point if you can get any decent Mauser with a tube sight. Or even without - Häyhä didnt used optical sights although he surely could get if he wished.
Also, big game rifles, although probably useful in some circumstances, werent made to shoot exactly long distances, but get through the thick skin and give enough of shock waves to kill big animals...
So using this as a basic panzer breaking weapons, say on armored cars or small light tanks (common in the beginning of the war, esp with italians but also russians) - yes, they could be useful. And I even think I saw this mentioned.
But for snipers?
IF so, a big game hunting rifle so perhaps on special occassions for special purposes. Say a general travelling in an partly armored car.
But I could imagine such big game rifles could be decently effective as flak against low flying planes... Surely much better than using the usual infantry rifles. And I presume they could be deployed in THIS role.
-
chitoryu12
- Member
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 10 Jan 2020, 21:55
- Location: Florida
Re: Civilian hunting rifles used by snipers?
I don't know of any instance where this was done. The military of every major combatant was generally quite strict about what they issued you, and civilian hunting weapons would be the realm of partisans who lacked access to the military supply chain. A sniper who was actually assigned to sniping would be assigned a rifle, and you would get "unfavorable looks" if you decided to toss it to take your hunting rifle from home instead.
Re: Civilian hunting rifles used by snipers?
Just a small point for reference on the whole matter - at least (as taught by military) in here sniper rifle is simply a rifle used by trained military specialist - sniper. Hence rifle equipped with telescopic sight is not automatically a sniper rifle, even if they are commonly considered to be such.
Rifle scopes were relatively rare and expensive back in the day and particularly scope designs manufactured for civilian market were not often not durable enough to be successful in military use. There were civilian hunting rifles equipped with rifle scopes pushed into military use, but the known cases of that happening that I am aware of are from World War 1. To be more specific the Germans early on in WW1 issued a lot of civilian hunting rifles equipped with rifle scopes for their snipers before they got more standardized sniper rifles into production and the British issued large calibre hunting rifles bit later for the purpose of trying to shoot though sniper plates that the Germans provided for their snipers to use in trenches. Considering massive scale of the conflict scoped hunting rifle must have seen some use somewhere at some point during World War 2, but none of the books about snipers & sniping of that era that I have read seem to mention that, so I would assume that their use must have been very rare indeed.
The solution for shortage of sniper rifles in here was instead of issuing civilian hunting rifles with their scopes was to buy all available rifle scopes from civilian market and install them on existing military rifles. Still for nation of 3.8 million this apparently project still produced no more than few dozen "rifle with rifle scope M/miscellaneous".
For basic info about the subject I can recommend "Out of Nowhere - a History of the Military Sniper" written by my friend Martin Pegler.
Rifle scopes were relatively rare and expensive back in the day and particularly scope designs manufactured for civilian market were not often not durable enough to be successful in military use. There were civilian hunting rifles equipped with rifle scopes pushed into military use, but the known cases of that happening that I am aware of are from World War 1. To be more specific the Germans early on in WW1 issued a lot of civilian hunting rifles equipped with rifle scopes for their snipers before they got more standardized sniper rifles into production and the British issued large calibre hunting rifles bit later for the purpose of trying to shoot though sniper plates that the Germans provided for their snipers to use in trenches. Considering massive scale of the conflict scoped hunting rifle must have seen some use somewhere at some point during World War 2, but none of the books about snipers & sniping of that era that I have read seem to mention that, so I would assume that their use must have been very rare indeed.
The solution for shortage of sniper rifles in here was instead of issuing civilian hunting rifles with their scopes was to buy all available rifle scopes from civilian market and install them on existing military rifles. Still for nation of 3.8 million this apparently project still produced no more than few dozen "rifle with rifle scope M/miscellaneous".
For basic info about the subject I can recommend "Out of Nowhere - a History of the Military Sniper" written by my friend Martin Pegler.
Re: Civilian hunting rifles used by snipers?
There were apparently commercial-production variants of the Mauser K98 that were pushed into military service during the war, but I dunno if any were equipped with scopes for snipers. Might be something for you to research.
This article has a list of scopes fitted to K98ks, including commercial models, but it's in some language I can't speak so I can't help you any further on that: http://www.chevallet.eu/Documents/Lunettes%2098k.pdf
This article has a list of scopes fitted to K98ks, including commercial models, but it's in some language I can't speak so I can't help you any further on that: http://www.chevallet.eu/Documents/Lunettes%2098k.pdf
Re: Civilian hunting rifles used by snipers?
The closest you would get to a military officially issuing civilian marksman equipment was the British adhoc purchase of commercial scopes in the First World War before they got a sniper program underway. All in all they acquired about 3,000 of them. However, it was not meant as a permanent measure, and by the time the P14 came into fruition, they surplussed all these scopes in the 1920s and returned the SMLEs back to their original configuration.
-Kind Regards
-Kind Regards
Re: Civilian hunting rifles used by snipers?
shortNumber24 wrote: ↑11 May 2020, 15:07This question relates to all nations involved in the war, I juast couldn't find a thread that was more suitable. I wonder if any snipers brought their own hunting rifle to war? The reasons could be familiarity, lack of good sniepr rifes or simply that their own rifles were better guns. One imagine game keepers and upper class types used to big game hunting at home or in the colonies may have considered this. Maybe someone brought their big-game rifles to use them as long range sniper rifles. Perhaps this was easier to pull off in special forces units were soldiers had more choice in selecting weapons.
Does anyone know anything about this?
Re: Civilian hunting rifles used by snipers?
The short answer is OK. High status individuals who really wanted to kill people with their own small arms could do so. Colonel? major? Jack Churchill took a bow and arrow.Number24 wrote: ↑11 May 2020, 15:07This question relates to all nations involved in the war, I juast couldn't find a thread that was more suitable. I wonder if any snipers brought their own hunting rifle to war? The reasons could be familiarity, lack of good sniepr rifes or simply that their own rifles were better guns. One imagine game keepers and upper class types used to big game hunting at home or in the colonies may have considered this. Maybe someone brought their big-game rifles to use them as long range sniper rifles. Perhaps this was easier to pull off in special forces units were soldiers had more choice in selecting weapons.
Does anyone know anything about this?
The reality was that small arms played a very small part in deciding WW2. Do you think 75mm 88mm or 105mm was the best calibre of gun howitzer? Or was a 50mm 81mm or 120mm the best calibre mortar?
Re: Civilian hunting rifles used by snipers?
Jack Churchill, again."Any officer who goes into action without his sword is improperly dressed." He wasn't in Normandy but Italy and Yugoslavia.
Lord Lovat was photographed carrying an American sporting rifle - not sure if this is it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Fra ... ,_1942.JPG
In his memoirs he wrote that he carried an American M1 Carbine on D Day.