Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
narikis
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: 25 Sep 2020, 12:34
Location: Internet

Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#1

Post by narikis » 29 Sep 2020, 18:13

Setting aside the Mauser C96 derivatives, were there any other variants of machine-pistol manufactured in any country before the end of WW2? I have heard that there was a fully-automatic version of the Steyr M1912 developed at some point during WW1 which saw limited service, but I know no details.

To avoid confusion, I'm using "machine-pistol" here to describe fully-automatic or burst-fire handguns, whether select-fire or full-auto only.

User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 2011
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 11:03
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#2

Post by JTV » 30 Sep 2020, 06:05

narikis wrote:
29 Sep 2020, 18:13
Setting aside the Mauser C96 derivatives, were there any other variants of machine-pistol manufactured in any country before the end of WW2? I have heard that there was a fully-automatic version of the Steyr M1912 developed at some point during WW1 which saw limited service, but I know no details.
That kind of depends what one considers manufacturing, since there were some full-auto conversions built from existing pistols, such as Lebman's "Baby machine gun" built from Colt 1911A1 pistols in early 1930's with some of the guns being sold to rather questionable clientele.

https://www.guns.com/news/2012/09/26/le ... ine-pistol


narikis
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: 25 Sep 2020, 12:34
Location: Internet

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#3

Post by narikis » 30 Sep 2020, 11:10

JTV wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 06:05
That kind of depends what one considers manufacturing, since there were some full-auto conversions built from existing pistols, such as Lebman's "Baby machine gun" built from Colt 1911A1 pistols in early 1930's with some of the guns being sold to rather questionable clientele.

https://www.guns.com/news/2012/09/26/le ... ine-pistol
I'd never heard of it, thanks for bringing it to my attention. I guess, for the sake of interest, I would include modifications like that in my question.

chitoryu12
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 10 Jan 2020, 21:55
Location: Florida

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#4

Post by chitoryu12 » 09 Nov 2020, 19:56

The Steyr pistol is the M1912.P16 if I remember the designation correctly. I don't know of any select-fire handguns in actual service other than the C96 family, as they tend to be of less use than a normal pistol or proper submachine gun.

User avatar
Hans1906
Banned
Posts: 4560
Joined: 07 Jan 2020, 00:13
Location: Deutschland

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#5

Post by Hans1906 » 09 Nov 2020, 20:33

Not WW1, or WW2, but I remember a very small full-auto pistol with a probably 20/30 rounds magazine,
used by east german "Stasi" service men (MfS...) forces..?
(Very few photos av., used in the personal guard for Erich Honecker, etc.)

Probably a full-auto pistol from russian production, not a czech so called "Scorpion", any ideas..?


Hans1906
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 2011
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 11:03
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#6

Post by JTV » 09 Nov 2020, 22:10

Hans1906 wrote:
09 Nov 2020, 20:33

Probably a full-auto pistol from russian production, not a czech so called "Scorpion", any ideas..?
Stechkin APS?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stechkin_automatic_pistol

narikis
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: 25 Sep 2020, 12:34
Location: Internet

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#7

Post by narikis » 10 Nov 2020, 01:37

Stechkin APS is after the period I'm asking about, in any case. There have been plenty of other machine-pistols made postwar (Beretta 93R, VP70, Škorpion vz. 61, etc). I am curious about the ones produced before May 1945.

narikis
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: 25 Sep 2020, 12:34
Location: Internet

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#8

Post by narikis » 10 Nov 2020, 01:45

chitoryu12 wrote:
09 Nov 2020, 19:56
The Steyr pistol is the M1912.P16 if I remember the designation correctly. I don't know of any select-fire handguns in actual service other than the C96 family, as they tend to be of less use than a normal pistol or proper submachine gun.
Warlords in China were apparently big fans of C96 machine-pistol derivatives. I have seen photos of a whole platoon-sized unit outfitted with them. Just because it is not the most practical thing does not mean somebody won't try it out ;)

I looked up the Steyr M1912/P16 (thanks for the name); there are a couple claims online that it was issued in limited numbers to Austrian mountain troops during WW1 (possibly as a counter to the Villar-Perosa smgs that the Italian mountain troops had). I can't find much detail to verify though.

User avatar
Hans1906
Banned
Posts: 4560
Joined: 07 Jan 2020, 00:13
Location: Deutschland

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#9

Post by Hans1906 » 11 Nov 2020, 13:23

Hi JTV,

thanks for the link, the "Stechkin automatic pistol" was probably, what I have seen on some photos and in short film clips..?

Narikis, "before 1945", the so-called "Baby machine gun" may hit your interest, please see attached photo, source: Pinterest.

If I remember this correctly, such a Colt M1911, converted to full-auto fire was used in the 2009 movie "Public Enemies", starring
Johnny Depp as John Dillinger, but I am not sure, probably another gangster movie..?
(Used by the gangster "Baby Face Nelson" in one scene)

Colt M1911 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pis ... 0to%201985

Public Enemies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_En ... 2009_film)

Interesting topic...


Hans1906

P.S. There were full-auto versions of the "Luger Pistole" also, but this another topic...
Luger Pistole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_pistol
Attachments
Colt Baby Machine Gun.jpg
Colt Baby Machine Gun.jpg (130.78 KiB) Viewed 7125 times
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

User avatar
Hans1906
Banned
Posts: 4560
Joined: 07 Jan 2020, 00:13
Location: Deutschland

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#10

Post by Hans1906 » 11 Nov 2020, 15:34

Good afternoon,

probably many of you are aware about these two historic photos already:

What is the story behind this somewhat strange construction with the 10! Mauser M712 full-auto pistols..?

Mauser M712 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_M712

I am betting on a former austrian (Österreich) uniform, but unfortunately I am not sure? :?


Hans1906

P.S. The original source of the two photos would be very interesting?
Attachments
Mauser C96 02.JPG
Mauser C96 02.JPG (161.32 KiB) Viewed 7113 times
Mauser C96 01.JPG
Mauser C96 01.JPG (151.47 KiB) Viewed 7113 times
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

User avatar
Helmut0815
Member
Posts: 919
Joined: 19 Sep 2010, 14:13
Location: Lower Saxony, Germany

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#11

Post by Helmut0815 » 12 Nov 2020, 00:03

Hans1906 wrote:
09 Nov 2020, 20:33
Not WW1, or WW2, but I remember a very small full-auto pistol with a probably 20/30 rounds magazine,
used by east german "Stasi" service men (MfS...) forces..?
Polish PM-63? Was used by Stasi agents and Regiment "Feliks Dscherzinski" troopers.
Hans1906 wrote:
11 Nov 2020, 15:34
What is the story behind this somewhat strange construction with the 10! Mauser M712 full-auto pistols..?
Wow, a Zehnling! Never seen that before.


regards


Helmut

User avatar
Hans1906
Banned
Posts: 4560
Joined: 07 Jan 2020, 00:13
Location: Deutschland

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#12

Post by Hans1906 » 12 Nov 2020, 00:43

"Wow, a Zehnling! Never seen that before." (There are other photos, later...)

Helmut, image the soldier pulling the trigger for the 200 rounds from the 10! M712... 8O

Quote: "900–1000 Schuss/min"

"Da bleibt kein Auge trocken", steht nur noch die Frage nach der Technik offen..? :o :o :o

Gute Nacht!
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

Knouterer
Member
Posts: 1661
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 18:19

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#13

Post by Knouterer » 12 Nov 2020, 13:17

Article about various Spanish selective fire pistols of the 1930s and 1940s:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/parte3cap12.pdf
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

Knouterer
Member
Posts: 1661
Joined: 15 Mar 2012, 18:19

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#14

Post by Knouterer » 12 Nov 2020, 13:28

And a French .32 Union machine pistol from the 1930s with 35-round "horseshoe" magazine. Doesn´t seem very practical. I believe Chinese arsenals also made various fully automatic pistols, apart from Mauser copies.
https://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/11/29/3 ... 32-pistol/
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

User avatar
Hans1906
Banned
Posts: 4560
Joined: 07 Jan 2020, 00:13
Location: Deutschland

Re: Machine-Pistols (other than C96 variants)

#15

Post by Hans1906 » 13 Nov 2020, 18:22

The american gangster "Baby Face Nelson" (Lester Joseph Gillis) used the full-auto converted Colt M1911

Lester Joseph Gillis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Face_Nelson

As accurately portrayed in the film "Public Enemies" from the year 2009.

"I know you bastards wear vests, so I'm gonna give it to you high and give it to you low!"
Source: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Public_Enemies

Btw. Excellent "modern" american gangster movie about John Dillinger, next to the 1973 movie "Dillinger", starring the legendary
Mr. Warren Oates as John Dillinger before.

Dillinger (1973) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dillinger_(1973_film)


Hans1906

P.S. I am certainly not a weapons fanatic, that was once, and is long ago...
But I like the historical accuracy, the very small details, and also the technical aspect.
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

Post Reply

Return to “Small Arms”