PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

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Brady
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PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

Post by Brady » 13 Jul 2021 22:39

Looking for a PTRD 41 Penetration Curve chart if anyone has one handy, I used the "Tool" but it seams a bit optimistic at range given the size of the Projectile.

Image

The Tool: https://www.onlineconversion.com/armor.htm

wwilson
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Re: PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

Post by wwilson » 15 Jul 2021 07:04

https://web.archive.org/web/20080920065 ... guns1.html gives the penetration as 35mm at 100 meters.

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Brady
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Re: PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

Post by Brady » 15 Jul 2021 15:08

It’s helpfully but it’s actually from the same source that I pulled those penetration figures from, although I was using a different type of ammunition for that gun, all I can seem to come up with our two penetration values so I’m having to use that tool to extrapolate, I was hoping for actual test data instead of basically a very very educated guess at what the range data looked like, my gut is telling me that past about 500 yards penetration data should start to drop off more dramatically than it does, Or more rapidly than the tool suggests it does

wwilson
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Re: PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

Post by wwilson » 15 Jul 2021 15:14

Russian Wikipedia mentions 40mm at 100 meters and 35mm at 300 meters.

Polish Wikipedia has it as 35mm at 300 meters and 25mm at 500 meters. Refers to the B-32 projectile.

http://www.antitank.co.uk/russian1.htm has it as 25mm at 300 meters.

Understand what you mean about the tool. It is probably calibrated for heavier projectiles that don't suffer as much penetration decay as the lighter 14.5-mm projectile did.

ETA. One predictive tool I use that is based on the performance of various projectiles estimates 29mm at around 450 meters with a straight-on hit; not too far off what the Polish Wiki claims.

ETA2. Information about the projectile itself: http://russianammo.org/Russian_Ammuniti ... 145mm.html

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Brady
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Re: PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

Post by Brady » 15 Jul 2021 19:20

Those are some nice links thank you, it looks like we are still left with extrapolation though at the end of the day

wwilson
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Re: PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

Post by wwilson » 15 Jul 2021 20:13

Hi Brady,

Extrapolation, yes. That is pretty much the case in most estimations of armor penetration because there are so many variables (like the hardness of the armor plate). Somewhere in Soviet archives (probably) are the results of ballistic testing done when the projectile was under evaluation. I note it still seems to be in use today with Russian heavy machine guns. There are also Chinese copies of the projectile. These items are of interest because data on them won't likely be far off from the performance of the B-32 projectile.

Regarding the tool you pointed out ... it does not appear to distinguish between projectile type? A full diameter AP round and a sub-caliber sabot shot have very different ballistics.

ETA: Estimation of penetration

Image

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Brady
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Re: PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

Post by Brady » 16 Jul 2021 15:54

TY for that Chart
It seams far more plausible


Which was the more common round, and what were there service entry dates ?

wwilson
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Re: PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

Post by wwilson » 16 Jul 2021 18:49

The Russian Wikipedia gives these dates of introduction:

B-32: 16 July 1941

BS-41: 15 August 1941; there was also a BS-39, may have existed in 1939 but no weapons available to fire it?

The BS had a tungsten carbide core and my guess is that it was far more rare as an available ammunition type than the B-32.

Looks to be a lengthy article in Russian here: https://web.archive.org/web/20140714112 ... 8_9_13.php

That article was the Wikipedia source for those intro dates. Interesting bit is that it appears the Soviet troops did not have the antitank rifles at the start of the Russo-German war :o

Also saw a bit that said the ATRs were effective out to 2,000 meters, but I assume that is for use against soft targets.

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Brady
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Re: PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

Post by Brady » 16 Jul 2021 22:38

That article was the Wikipedia source for those intro dates. Interesting bit is that it appears the Soviet troops did not have the antitank rifles at the start of the Russo-German war

!, O wow, I had no idea about that, I always asumed they did ?


Great Link btw, Thanks.

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JTV
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Re: PTRD 41 Penetration Curve's

Post by JTV » 17 Jul 2021 14:36

Brady wrote:
16 Jul 2021 22:38
That article was the Wikipedia source for those intro dates. Interesting bit is that it appears the Soviet troops did not have the antitank rifles at the start of the Russo-German war

!, O wow, I had no idea about that, I always asumed they did ?
That is correct - when the Germans launched Operation Barbarossa in June of 1941 the Soviets did not have antitank-rifle that would already have been manufactured in any real numbers or one that would have even been in production. They had started development of antitank-rifles already in early 1930's with multiple prototypes (most of them in 12.7 mm x 108) from several design teams.

After testing Nikolay V. Rukashnikov's antitank-rifle was officially approved for Red Army in August of 1939. Rukashnikov's rifle was 14.5 x 114 caliber gas-action semiautomatic 5-round magazine and while officially introduced, soon proved unreliable (partly due to sub-standard ammunition), hence its production was stopped already before mass-production stage. While most of the reliability problems of the rifle were fixed, it was already too late - it did not re-enter into production even later, since it was also found to be too slow & expensive to mass-produce. August of 1940 the Soviets stopped all antitank-rifle production due to false intelligence that suggested new German tanks being so heavily armored that 14.5 mm x 114 cartridge (and even antitank-guns) would have supposedly been ineffective against them. Only after facing German offensive they came to realize how serious a error that had been and started mad rush of developing of antitank-rifle suited for mass-production - which resulted introduction of PTRD and PTRS.

The Soviets also had introduced 14.5 mm x 114 cartridge in year 1938, but did not have standard armor piercing bullet designs for it until much later. The first standard AP bullet design was B-32 (with steel-core) officially approved in July of 1941, followed by BS-41 (with wolfram-carbide core) already the next month.

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