MP 40 ?

[LineDoggie]

I was not aware that German forces sometimes used foreign small arms.

Germany used almost any foreign weapons they could use, giving them new designations. Some were modified- the PPsh41 was sometimes rebarreled to 9mm

as examples of being taken into service
the US M1 Garand rifle in German use was Selbstladegewehr 251(a)

UK Bren as Leichtes Maschinengewehr 138(e)

Italian m38 beretta SMG as Maschinenpistole 739(i)


You will see Occupation 2nd line units using Lebel and Berthier rifles in Southern France

Polish Browning watercooled machineguns ( Maschinengewehr 30(p) ) on the Normandy defense bunkers

[CogCalgary]

Do you remember the pictures of the North Vietnamese and the VC, firing and shooting down American planes from a sky in groups with simple handguns.
They used simple weapon technology against high technology, and in the end, these little people in "black pyjamas" made this war a winner...


Hans

Source of claim?

I recall seeing film footage of villagers being trained how to shoot at a fighter jet using a small model attached to a stick.Some documentary years back.
May have been the same doc discussing the tactics of "Col Toon".

[Hans1906]

Source of claim?

Are these photos fake, the VC and the North Vietnamese were shooting at meaningless targets, very sure not.

My father Bob was shot down two times, riding in american helicopters, the man just told me shit, why should he ?
The man was ill after 1974, addicted to drugs and alcohol, an American hero, honorably discharged into his civilian life.

We can only be thankful that we never experienced this shit.


Hans

[Poot]

That's a photo of irregulars pointing guns towards the sky, not of US fixed wing aircraft being shot down by small arms.

[LineDoggie]

Source of claim?

Are these photos fake, the VC and the North Vietnamese were shooting at meaningless targets, very sure not.

My father Bob was shot down two times, riding in american helicopters, the man just told me shit, why should he ?
The man was ill after 1974, addicted to drugs and alcohol, an American hero, honorably discharged into his civilian life.

We can only be thankful that we never experienced this shit.


Hans

Those are RIFLES, you said handguns (pistols) shooting down American planes from a sky in groups with simple handguns.

Rifle-



Handgun-




Note the difference

[LineDoggie]

Further a Rifle cartridge say .30US aka .30-06 in this case M2 Ball travels 835M/S and good for point targets at 457M M1 barrel @(609mm)

9mm Parabellum travels at approximately 360M/S and good for about 50-75M after that kinetic energy drops rapidly from a pistol length barrel of 4 to 6 inches@ (125mm)

do you comprehend a pistol bullet will have vastly less effect on a speeding aircraft.

Now you said WW2 so the Only US Fighter/Pursuit aircraft in the NWE campaign in 1945 were the

P-38 Lightning @ 666Km/H
P-47 Thunderbolt @ 686Km/H
P-51 Mustang @ 710Km/H the speed are given for strafing runs usually done at maximum speed not cruising speeds

Now for strafing it could also by the A-26 invader @ 578Km/H which could have 14 forward firing 12.7 Brownings, rockets and frag cluster bomb units

20mm Flak was these aircrafts most deadly foe, not a Walther P.38 being fired at it

[Hans1906]

There are very few documents about these shooting-downs, but you can find something if you really search:

Only in Vietnam – Shooting Down Aircraft with Infantry Rifles | VTV World


A great deal of propaganda from the time, but in all propaganda there is also some truth.

My father Bob never went back to the country of Vietnam after 1974, he couldn't take it, I understand his motives at the time.

I feel sorry for the soldier and his victims, and I am grateful that I was never forced to shoot at other people.


Hans

[Hans1906]

The destruction of entire landscapes was perverse, the absolute abyss...

Wings over Vietnam


You don't have to understand something like that, you wanted to bomb the little slit eyes back to the "Stone Age!", the aggressors didn't succeed, and that's a good thing!

And of course every weapon was used to ward off this madness, which of us wouldn't have done that...


Hans

[CogCalgary]

Flying low to avoid radar.

[Hans1906]

Oh, that's all legend, the North Vietnamese shot down dozens of American planes with small arms, with concentrated anti-aircraft fire.
Supposedly with simple shotguns, but this can no longer be proven...

One must not forget that the people were defending their own country against a foreign aggressor, and something like that aroused enormous potential, understandably!

Even old German machine guns were used /Thanks to the "commi" friends from the DDR.

And you won't fly away from this weapon, that's for sure...
This weapon is not to be trifled with, it was a pretty nasty thing, no question.

There are dozens of photos where the North Vietnamese used this German machine gun, for good reason...



Hans

[Hans1906]

I hate guns around me, years ago my friend Petra's father first shot his wife, then his two adult sons, and then himself.

My ladyfriend Petra accidentally avoided this suicide because she wasn't at home.

The father shot his family out of financial worries, he could no longer keep his restaurant and hotel.

The suicide happened without cause out of the blue late one Saturday night.

The father was a hunter, my friend Petra never talks about it.

I don't know why I'm writing this, some things you can't understand, but a gun in the hand of someone weary of life is a danger, I keep my distance.


Hans

[Poot]

Oh, that's all legend, the North Vietnamese shot down dozens of American planes with small arms, with concentrated anti-aircraft fire.
Supposedly with simple shotguns, but this can no longer be proven...

Hans

Sources? Evidence?
If it can't be proven now, it couldn't have been proven then.

[LineDoggie]

There are very few documents about these shooting-downs, but you can find something if you really search:

Only in Vietnam – Shooting Down Aircraft with Infantry Rifles | VTV World


A great deal of propaganda from the time, but in all propaganda there is also some truth.

My father Bob never went back to the country of Vietnam after 1974, he couldn't take it, I understand his motives at the time.

I feel sorry for the soldier and his victims, and I am grateful that I was never forced to shoot at other people.


Hans

And the fixed bayonets on the M44 Carbines made the bullets go straighter will be the next fantasy claim?

[LineDoggie]

Oh, that's all legend, the North Vietnamese shot down dozens of American planes with small arms, with concentrated anti-aircraft fire.
Supposedly with simple shotguns, but this can no longer be proven...

It never could
Of course it cannot be proven, a Shotgun shoots soft lead pellets (lets assume #00 Buckshot-9 pellets per load) and only good for maybe 100 ft/ 30.5m after that kinetic energy drops off astronomically and you seriously make the claim they shot down F4 Phantoms flying at mach 2.23 at low level? (Always assume aircraft making strafing runs fly at maximum speed in a combat situation)

One must not forget that the people were defending their own country against a foreign aggressor, and something like that aroused enormous potential, understandably!

One should say the same for the South Vietnamese being invaded by the North Vietnamese aggressor. the USA however never intended to Invade North Vietnam, but stop the North Vietnamese Military invading sovereign South Vietnam. Even with Patriotism it doesnt make for Accurate AA fires from Bolt Action rifles

Even old German machine guns were used /Thanks to the "commi" friends from the DDR.

And you won't fly away from this weapon, that's for sure...
This weapon is not to be trifled with, it was a pretty nasty thing, no question.

odd as the USAAF, RAF, VVS regularly flew away past it.

Oh and the most likely source for large numbers of MG-34 and 42 were twofold.

The Soviets captured so very many by 1945

and the French also used them from 1945 in Indochina

I guess the trained Wehrmacht gunners were incompetent and only North Vietnamese farmers and factory workers with no real live ammo training could use it effectively?

There are dozens of photos where the North Vietnamese used this German machine gun, for good reason...

Sure, because its what they had from captured and Soviet sources. Much like the M1918BAR and M1 Carbines captured from the french.



Using the USAF alone as an example (Not counting USMC, USN, VNAF) USAF alone flew 5-1/4 Million sorties during the war. Losses to Enemy (North Vietnamese actions were 1,737, that's 0.4 losses to enemy action per 1,000 Sorties rate.

Losses to A2A, AAA Guns 14.5mm ZPU, 37mm M1939 61K, 57mm AZP S-60, 85mm M1939 52K , Missiles (SAMS) or shotguns, pistols and rifles? which would be overwhelmingly far more likely?

[CogCalgary]

I was not aware that German forces sometimes used foreign small arms.

Germany used almost any foreign weapons they could use, giving them new designations. Some were modified- the PPsh41 was sometimes rebarreled to 9mm

as examples of being taken into service
the US M1 Garand rifle in German use was Selbstladegewehr 251(a)

UK Bren as Leichtes Maschinengewehr 138(e)

Italian m38 beretta SMG as Maschinenpistole 739(i)


You will see Occupation 2nd line units using Lebel and Berthier rifles in Southern France

Polish Browning watercooled machineguns ( Maschinengewehr 30(p) ) on the Normandy defense bunkers

Would those M1 weapons have come mainly from Tunisia?