MP 40 ?

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
LineDoggie
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Re: MP 40 ?

Post by LineDoggie » 15 Feb 2023 04:09

Tunisia, Salerno, Anzio, Cisterna, Normandy. It was just a way to categorize all captured arms in any large quantities.

In some cases new ammunition was manufactured for the arms and training manuals drawn up.

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"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

CogCalgary
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Re: MP 40 ?

Post by CogCalgary » 15 Feb 2023 15:10

Thank you.

ThatZenoGuy
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Re: MP 40 ?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 26 Apr 2023 11:14

Hans1906 wrote:
30 Jan 2023 21:30
The father of my school friend T. often talked about shooting down an American low-flying aircraft with a German submachine gun.

He always remembered the german "Maschinenpistole 40" https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maschinenpistole_40
Was something like that possible, I've always doubted it, how do you think about it today ?

The alleged shooting down is said to have happened in northern Hessen in 1945, as far as I know, the man received an award for it.

I would be interested in your answers...


Hans
If the plane was flying exceptionally close to the ground and the gunner was exceedingly lucky, yeah I think a 9mm (potentially iron-core ersatz ammo) could punch through the aluminum skin of a plane and injure/kill the pilot.

ROLAND1369
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Re: MP 40 ?

Post by ROLAND1369 » 01 May 2023 14:32

While I agree it would be luck not skill, there were many vunderable areas on aircraft more unprotected than the pilot. For the P 51 the unprotected engine components such as oil, coolant, and fuel lines as well as the fairly large un armored coolant radiator under the belly. A lucky hit on any one of these would bring it or a spitfire down. I Viet Nam we called such a hit the "Golden BB". I would say such an event as knocking down a fighter with an MP 40 is while highly uncommon is certainly ballistically possible.

ThatZenoGuy
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Re: MP 40 ?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 02 May 2023 05:11

ROLAND1369 wrote:
01 May 2023 14:32
While I agree it would be luck not skill, there were many vunderable areas on aircraft more unprotected than the pilot. For the P 51 the unprotected engine components such as oil, coolant, and fuel lines as well as the fairly large un armored coolant radiator under the belly. A lucky hit on any one of these would bring it or a spitfire down. I Viet Nam we called such a hit the "Golden BB". I would say such an event as knocking down a fighter with an MP 40 is while highly uncommon is certainly ballistically possible.
9mm is pretty weaksauce to a 8mm rifle round, and a single 8mm rifle round was considered barely a threat to WW2 planes.

Yeah a lucky 9mm hit might cause a radiator leak, but a small enough one to limp back to base.

gebhk
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Re: MP 40 ?

Post by gebhk » 02 May 2023 10:17

If the plane was flying exceptionally close to the ground and the gunner was exceedingly lucky, yeah I think a 9mm (potentially iron-core ersatz ammo) could punch through the aluminum skin of a plane and injure/kill the pilot.
Given that strafing Allied planes flew very low towards the end of the war (tales of propellers bent by contact with the ground) it is possible. However, you would have to have positively sinister luck to be standing in just the right place and pointing the gun in just the right direction to make effective use of this possibility!

Thus the answer to the question 'is it possible?' is yes.

To the question 'is it likely?' Not very... :(

That being said, I guess given the hundreds of thousands of man with gun vs aircraft encounters during the war, it was bound to happen sooner or later. After all, allegedly, a Soviet aircraft was brought down with a 37mm A/T gun in 1939......

ROLAND1369
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Re: MP 40 ?

Post by ROLAND1369 » 03 May 2023 04:44

[quote=ThatZenoGuy post_id=2471059 time=1683000664 user_id=80735]
[quote=ROLAND1369 post_id=2470947 time=1682947964 user_id=24651]
While I agree it would be luck not skill, there were many vunderable areas on aircraft more unprotected than the pilot. For the P 51 the unprotected engine components such as oil, coolant, and fuel lines as well as the fairly large un armored coolant radiator under the belly. A lucky hit on any one of these would bring it or a spitfire down. I Viet Nam we called such a hit the "Golden BB". I would say such an event as knocking down a fighter with an MP 40 is while highly uncommon is certainly ballistically possible.
[/quote]

9mm is pretty weaksauce to a 8mm rifle round, and a single 8mm rifle round was considered barely a threat to WW2 planes.

Yeah a lucky 9mm hit might cause a radiator leak, but a small enough one to limp back to base.
[/quote]
high
While I do not disagree with the highly unlikely possibility of this happening a 9 mm is certainly capible of penetrating the skin let alone the oil and coolant lines. As to the possibility of making it back to base loosing coolant, it is highly unlikely at least the P-51 would make it home it is not just the loss of coolant but the loss of the pressuration in the cooling system would cause the boiling point to be reduced and an overheat would occur quit quickly. The Israeli AF attempted to employ 25 of the mustangs for ground attack during the 56 war and lost 5 in operations. The US quickly withdrew them from Korea due to excessive loss in ground attack. Admittedly this true of the liquid cooled models and a radial engine bird such as the P 47 was almost impossible to knock down with small arms. But I have seen jets and other aircraft dropped by small arms. ie the lucky golden BB.

ThatZenoGuy
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Re: MP 40 ?

Post by ThatZenoGuy » 03 May 2023 07:44

ROLAND1369 wrote:
03 May 2023 04:44
high
While I do not disagree with the highly unlikely possibility of this happening a 9 mm is certainly capible of penetrating the skin let alone the oil and coolant lines. As to the possibility of making it back to base loosing coolant, it is highly unlikely at least the P-51 would make it home it is not just the loss of coolant but the loss of the pressuration in the cooling system would cause the boiling point to be reduced and an overheat would occur quit quickly. The Israeli AF attempted to employ 25 of the mustangs for ground attack during the 56 war and lost 5 in operations. The US quickly withdrew them from Korea due to excessive loss in ground attack. Admittedly this true of the liquid cooled models and a radial engine bird such as the P 47 was almost impossible to knock down with small arms. But I have seen jets and other aircraft dropped by small arms. ie the lucky golden BB.
A plane doesn't have to run full throttle to stay aloft, and they can glide a fair distance as well. Given the context (US planes strafing/flying super low to the ground), an airbase cannot possibly be too far away.

If planes were 'that' fragile, the ultimate anti aircraft weapon would be a colossal amount of iddy biddy high velocity bullets. Instead we find that we much prefer big explodey ones instead.

By no means is a 9mm hole in a radiator good for a plane, but it's going to take a while before that damage is fatal.

ROLAND1369
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Re: MP 40 ?

Post by ROLAND1369 » 03 May 2023 14:47

First of all most fighter aircraft glide like a rock. If they are hit at low level they don't glide far. If they climb prior to having to glide the engine will need considerable power. Prior to the invasion of France if hit over France their chance of nursing the engine or gliding back to england was pretty much nil. Even after the forward landing fields were established in france. Their chance of getting back to friendly lines was low, particularly. if engaged over germany. Once again as in all my correspondence I have said the "Golden BB" shootdown is highly unlikely but I have seen it happen.

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Tanzania
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Re: MP 40 ?

Post by Tanzania » 07 May 2023 08:04

Hans1906 wrote:
30 Jan 2023 21:30
The father of my school friend T. often talked about shooting down an American low-flying aircraft with a German submachine gun.

He always remembered the german "Maschinenpistole 40" https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maschinenpistole_40
Was something like that possible, I've always doubted it, how do you think about it today ?

The alleged shooting down is said to have happened in northern Hessen in 1945, as far as I know, the man received an award for it.
I would be interested in your answers...
Hans
Hi Hans,

Hope you are doing well. Almost 50 years ago I saw a similar scene in a movie. Normandy 1944,
on a coastal cliff, a German MP 40 gunner fires at an approaching Spitfire. This was also the only
action scene, otherwise the film was oppressive, gloomy, downright dystopian.

The German title was then: "Der Bunker", in the English original version: "The Blockhouse" from 1973.
Peter Sellers in what is probably his most atypical and unknown title role. The film doesn't even appear
in his discography.

Unfortunately, there are no more clips of the film on YouTube. The Spitfire and MP 40 gunner even
appear on this movie poster.
The Blockhouse.png
Source: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51vM5Df5BZL.jpg

Cheers Holger
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