Hip firing an MG 42 !?

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
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Alter Mann
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Firing MGs From Hip

#16

Post by Alter Mann » 06 Dec 2004, 00:40

It may be John Rambo for you young people, but us old poops prefer John Wayne. :D

Close range hip-shooting with a machinegun should be avoided at all costs, but, it makes a lot more sense than being dead.

BTW, that particular encounter made my day. The aggressors had been running us ragged for a week and I was very happy to have the opportunity to see the looks on their faces. I think I would have at least looked first before running through that hedge.

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DARIVS ARCHITECTVS
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#17

Post by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS » 16 Dec 2010, 11:05

To answer the question as to why the bipod is held instead of supporting the MG-42 by the barrel jacket, the answer is, you need to have the leverage that holding the bipod provides. Holding it farther back makes it much harder to control the aim, and the 8mm Mauser cartridge backs a lot more recoil than the Nato 7.62x51 (.308) cartridge used in the MG-3. The MG-3 and MG-42 weight the same, but if you get a chance to fire the MG-42, you will notice a huge difference in recoil push and firing rate. The MG-3 is less wasteful of ammo and more controllable, but the 8mm cartridge will basically tear the $hit of anything at ranges much farther out than the .308 cartridge. After all, the MG-42 was originally designed to be used in ALL machine gun roles for that time, including as a light anti-aircraft gun.


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Harro
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#18

Post by Harro » 16 Dec 2010, 14:49

On the phone I asked a veteran from 2./AA LAH who served in one of the schw.MG demi-platoons from 1940 to 1943 (Greece, Barbarossa and Ssambek w/MG34, Charkow w/MG42). He says it might be possible but they did not teach it, did not train it and he never saw it done in the field.

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ReinhardH
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#19

Post by ReinhardH » 21 Dec 2010, 04:23

Here's a pic from the Paul Carell photo volume that accompanies his "Unternehmen Barbarossa". It doesn't look like the fellow was firing the MG the moment the pic was taken, but by the way he's carrying it during the dash forward, it certainly looks like he's ready to squeeze off a few rounds if necessary...
MGHip.jpg
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Also, interesting to read that a very big person might be able to handle one of those MG's by himself ...

Dad was among those from the weapons school in Berlin that was called to the Bendlerblock under emergent conditions by the conspirators as a 'rear guard' in the July 20 '44 plot. Because they had absolutely no 'official' means of transportation to get them there that fast, his group of about 15 had to commandeer a street car, and so by the time they got there, even the SS had already arrived on the scene.
Long story short, after an openly visible heated argument with the commander of the troops already in place, and under threat of treason, his commanding officer was given little choice but to agree to have his troops join those already standing guard around the headquarters.
After a while of letting 'no one in and no one out' of the building (very proud to say that dad did not 'exactly' follow these orders :P, but that's entirely another story), they were sent back to the weapons school, and so for them, the matter was over and done with.
Only later did they find out what had actually taken place that day.

lol, Anyhow, one of the guys in dad's group that day was such a big strong individual that he had no trouble carrying his MG42 like an assault rifle 8-)

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Sarge
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#20

Post by Sarge » 22 Dec 2010, 11:04

I have fired my MG 42 from the assault position many times. It is not the most accurate method, especially if firing more than about a 10 rd burst, but would be good for keeping the other guys head down for a bit.
I do it differently than Davis describes in that I leave the sling attached at the front and put the loop over my head and hold the bipod with my hand at the end against the foot and at about a 45 degree angle. I also do not always use the drum, but lay a 50 rd belt over my arm with a bit of slack between my arm and the gun. You definately do not want to do this with a bare arm if at all possible. After a bout 15+ rds the belt will fall to verticle from the feed tray.
I like the assault fire position with my Bren Gun. With the butt against my side and the carrying handle extended verticly away from the gun it is very stable and pretty accurate. I can chop down bowling pins at 100 yds with little problem. Not nearly as easy to do this with the 42!
I do not find firing my BAR from the standing position in any form to be comfortable! If the bipod is taken off it is a lot better, but I'm still not impressed.
Neither the 42 or the BAR is as much fun to fire this way as the Bren Gun!!!
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trapperP
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#21

Post by trapperP » 23 Dec 2010, 16:43

IIRC, the MG34 and the MG42 had a very major difference in that the MG34 was select fire while the MG42 was full auto only. Exactly how much difference would this make? I have never fired the MG42 but have limited experience [50 rds only] with the MG34 and I cannot imagine firing that beast from the hip on full auto! And fifty rounds lasts about three heart beats. It seems to me that the MG34 fires about twice the cyclic rate of the M60 which I have fired many many rounds through!
And this has been a very informative post so far; thanks!
trapperP

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DARIVS
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#22

Post by DARIVS » 28 Dec 2010, 05:14

Firing ANY light machinegun that already has a bipod is usually a bad idea, and it it only done if you have no choice and have to lay down fie while preparing to move. I'm sure the M-60 handles a lot better from the hip than the MG-42 does. It is shorter, probably a little lighter, fires a weaker round, and has half the firing rate. You REALLY have to have strong hold of the MG-42 and the correct body positioning to get any reasonable accuracy out of the MG-42 when firing it from the hip. I can get a spread of 2'-'3 per burst at 70 yards with 8mm Mauser ammo. It uses up far more ammo than it's worth, but a heck of a lot of fun to do!

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DARIVS ARCHITECTVS
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#23

Post by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS » 28 Dec 2010, 05:20

Hmm.. it appears I have two accounts here.. I should delete one... :milwink:

The links to my website have changed (go to the MG-42 shooting page):

http://www.stormthewalls.kicks-ass.net

YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/DARIVSARCHI ... ature=mhum

l1a1man
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#24

Post by l1a1man » 29 Jan 2011, 08:11

I just watched a WWII German movie reel and the FJ jumped out of a glider and assaulted an enemy position. The lead man had a MG42 and was giving off bursts from the hip as he ran.

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ReinhardH
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#25

Post by ReinhardH » 01 Feb 2011, 05:22

Was the lead man carrying an MG42 .. or perhaps an FG42? Is there an online link to the movie reel that you could post?

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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#26

Post by jbaum » 01 Feb 2011, 19:17

Firing the light MG34 and 42 from the hip in an assault is explained in some of the manuals I've translated. Firing only short bursts, resting the buttstock on the tool pouch, wrapping the sling an extra time around the grip to shorten the sling for short people, using the bipod as a hand hold for firing, it's all explained in the manuals and quite real.

Besides that, I've done it, and as long as the burst is kept short, it's quite controllable although I wouldn't want to be a little guy and have to carry it all day.
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#27

Post by jbaum » 03 Feb 2011, 05:35

A few pictures and text from Merkblatt 25/3:
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timdp
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#28

Post by timdp » 17 Feb 2011, 05:59

M60 is 550 rounds per minute.
MG34 fires 800-900 rounds per minute.
MG42 "official" rate of fire was 1200, but a 1200 rpm gun was considered a "slow" gun and the actual rate of fire went up to 1600 rpm with 1400-1500 being fairly typical.

Muzzle energy of the 8mm round is around 3000 ft/lbs compared to 2600 for the NATO 7.52x51

M60 firing for 1 second (9.16 rounds) = 23,833 ft/lbs/second
MG42 firing for 1 second (25 rounds) = 75,000 ft/lbs/second

So the recoil for the MG42 will be roughly TRIPLE the recoil of the M60 and nearly double the recoil of the MG34. Its going to take a big guy to hold on to that thing firing anything more than very short bursts....

trapperP wrote:IIRC, the MG34 and the MG42 had a very major difference in that the MG34 was select fire while the MG42 was full auto only. Exactly how much difference would this make? I have never fired the MG42 but have limited experience [50 rds only] with the MG34 and I cannot imagine firing that beast from the hip on full auto! And fifty rounds lasts about three heart beats. It seems to me that the MG34 fires about twice the cyclic rate of the M60 which I have fired many many rounds through!
And this has been a very informative post so far; thanks!

jbaum
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Re: Hip firing an MG 42 !?

#29

Post by jbaum » 17 Feb 2011, 06:53

When the MG42 was only fired in very short bursts, gunner size wasn't that important. My 135 pound nephew hip fired my MG42 without trouble, and he had no experience with it. With experience, I think short bursts would be fairly easy to control, even for smaller gunners. They are easy for me, but I'm taller and heavier. Having the split sling around your neck provides support and a pivot point. It makes tames the beast very well.

It's certainly not a target weapon, but with a burst headed my way, I wouldn't stick my head up to see if it was accurate. For suppressing fire during an assault and keeping the enemy down, it would certainly serve its purpose.
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