The official AHF small arms quiz thread

[The Edge]

I’m not sure whether if last photo is Hamer himself or it is from actual shooting (famous 20-round magazine is missing). Maybe this is Oakley:
The other Model 8 used on that faithful day was carried by Deputy Prentiss Oakley to bring down Barrow.
Contrary to Hollywood version, no Thomson SMGs were used by Texas Rangers in famous ambush, for obvious reason:
Frank Hamer had owned an engraved Remington Model 8 in .30 caliber for years and knew well the excellent qualities of the weapon. He opted for a larger caliber to deliver more punch to the target. He ordered the standard .35 from Jake Petmeckey's store in Austin, Texas and was shipped serial number 10045. Hamer also contacted the Peace Officer Equipment Company in St. Joseph, Missouri for it's "police only" 20 round magazine for the Remington rifle. Some years ago Frank Hamer Jr., a distinguished lawman in his own right, gave a filmed interview in which he showed the nimble .35 that his father had bought especially to go after Bonnie and Clyde. As to the rifle's ability to tear holes in a V8 Ford, Frank Hamer had an unimpeachable source - Clyde Barrow. Though Clyde and Bonnie escaped the Sowers ambush by Dallas County authorities in November of 1933, Clyde ditched his shot up car near the Ft. Worth Pike and commandeered a less damaged car to make good their flight to freedom. The abandoned V8 spoke volumes to the able lawmen of Dallas County and to the Rangers. Ted Hinton had hit the car 17 out of 30 shots with his Thompson submachine gun and hadn't penetrated the car body. Veteran Deputy Bob Alcorn had chugged away with his hefty Browning Automatic Rifle and ripped some respectable holes all the way through the car. Hinton called his Congressman, got a BAR from the government and a back seat full of ammunition, and learned how to shoot the roaring automatic rifle.
So, at least two Rangers had government issue BARs; they were probably also supplied with AP rounds as well, since:
The officers, even after pumping 167 rounds into the car, approached the machine carefully. Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow couldn't have been any deader. Fifty rounds had smashed into their bodies. Some through the driver's door, through Clyde, through Bonnie and out the passenger door.
As for the weapons found in Bonnie & Clyde car, they were similarly armed:
three Browning automatic rifles, one 10 gauge Winchester lever action, one sawed-off shotgun, one 20 gauge sawed-off shotgun, one Colt .32 caliber automatic, one Colt .45 caliber revolver, five .45 ACP Colt 1911 pistols, two Colt automatics in .38 Super and approximately 3,000 rounds of ammunition.
Again, not a single Thomson! (Both BARs & 1911s were arms stolen from Army werehouses.) Colt automatic in .38 Super caliber were popular on either sides (lawmen/gangsters) because of their penetration capabilities (protective vests and car sides) – both Hamer & Clyde Barrow had it (also Dillinger, Nelson, etc.).
Photo & info sources:
http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com/?page_id=158
http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety. ... gallery=14
http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety. ... &nggpage=2
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/hamer_guns.htm
http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbonnie.html

So, after a rather long story – over to Australia for the next question!

(one bonus photo attached – story goes that Pancho Willa bodyguards also used Remington Mod. 8s)

[varjag]

Thank you Edge...I believe the BAR used by law officers was a commerial product called 'Browning Monitor', was semi-auto only and ha a somewhat shorter barrel than the military version.

Anyhow - next. An exported service revolver. For what service and what was it's caliber? Varjag

[The Edge]

From burrito to lasagna...

The Monitor was a variant of the Colt Automatic Machine Rifle, which was the commercial version of the BAR marketed by Colt in a number of variations between the early 1920's and WWII. The factory designation for the Monitor was R80, and it was introduced in 1931 in response to reports that police roadblocks equipped with .45 ACP Thompson submachineguns were being routinely run by large heavy beer trucks. The .30-06 Monitor was quite capable of splitting engine blocks and stopping the trucks.
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/ga ... 0/2158.htm

The Colt company also produced a lightened semi-automatic version of the BAR, called a Colt model 75 "Monitor" rifle. This was intended mostly for police use, but also found its way into the hands of outlaws, too.
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg36-e.htm

Clyde Barrow, of the infamous Barrow Gang, used a shortened BAR (stolen from National Guard armories) during his spree in the 1930s. The six lawmen who killed Bonnie and Clyde used a variant of the BAR called the Colt Monitor in their ambush. (Wikipedia for BAR)

The Model 1925 Monitor was a commercial version of the 1918 BAR. Major differences were - 18" barrel with Cutts Compensator, a vertical pistol grip, and selective full and semiautomatic fire control. It ran about 500 rounds per minute on full auto. This differed from most military BARs, which had high- and low-rate full only.
There was another, similar, version, called the Colt Automatic Machine Rifle (CAMR,) with most of the same commercial features. The CAMR, though, had a 24" barrel and is sometimes mistaken for the Monitor.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/sho ... ?p=2243121

My favourite one: http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Monitor.pdf
"In the capture and shooting of Bonnie and Clyde, along with a multitude of weapons, BARs and one Monitor were used. The Barrow’s gang had two BARs, dozens of Colt 1911s, and a variety of other lethal weapons. Captain Frank Hamer of Texas Rangers had the Monitor (serial number C-103168) that was allegedly presented to him by the Colt Company" (When? :roll: Colt usually presented his arms to already famous persons)
"The cyclic rate was approximately 550 rounds per minute."

Btw, why Ted Hinton had to call his Congressman for the “civilian issue”, semi-auto only rifle?
(Except for being a cheap... sorry, "very economic", as most policemen are )
I believe he wanted the best option – military style, full-auto rifle. (Maybe AP rounds as well?) :roll:

[The Edge]

It seems I the one responsible for "sacred words" here.

Orbea Hermanos (mod. Tettoni) mod. 1916, cal. 10,35 Italian

http://www.museoexordinanza.eu/schede/tettoni.htm

[varjag]

It seems I the one responsible for "sacred words" here.

Orbea Hermanos (mod. Tettoni) mod. 1916, cal. 10,35 Italian

http://www.museoexordinanza.eu/schede/tettoni.htm

You surely are the utterer of The most Sacred Words!

And right as usual. The British army - did use the same revolver, though in .455 Webley caliber.
Fire away Edge, Varjag

[The Edge]

According to http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/40-1914-18a.pdf British versions were
GARATE, ANITUA Y CIA. (“PISTOL O.P. WITH FIVE INCH BARREL No 1 MARK 1”)
TROCAOLA, ARANZABAL Y CIA. (PISTOL O.P. WHIT FIVE INCH BARREL No 2 MARK 1”)
but Orbea Hermanos Y Compañia was probably also included, since it was (quote) presidió una sindicación de los principales fabricantes de revólveres “Smith”.
(see also: http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/41-1914-18b.pdf )

I went for Italian one, since you put an effort to hide the inscription one frame side (British models had no such text at the same spot) - as I did for the next question:

[The Edge]

From Lasagna to Knackwurst... (hint)

...or Kochsuppe, depending of taste.

[The Edge]

Still nothing?

More hints: very famous German military supplier. This pistol from 1920s was only "civil market" entry I know bearing their name. (Rather unsussessful one, btw )

Interesting design feature is its rather old-fashioned type slide (spot the red line), although pistol looks like Browning M.1910 copy.

[varjag]

Rheinmetall Sommerda 1921 in .32ACP, Varjag

[The Edge]

Rheinmetall Sommerda 1921 in .32ACP, Varjag

Yes - exactly the one.

Photo source: Hermann Historica online catalogue.

Over to late sleeper in Australia.

[varjag]

late sleeper

Nope - I was hoping someone else would crack it....now - I - have to post a question :roll:

What - was known as a ''vintovka''?, Varjag

[The Edge]

Not fair to hide online status - me looks not polite.

Nope - I was hoping someone else would crack it....now - I - have to post a question :roll:

Major problem, as always.

[The Edge]

What - was known as a ''vintovka''?

Maybe you should be more precise – what type of “vintovka”: :roll:
Mагазинная винтовка,
Самозарядная винтовка,
Снайперская винтовка,
Винтовка Снайперская Специальная ...

My favourite: „Bинтовка Winchester M1895”
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl25-r.htm

[varjag]

I believe that the 'vintovka' in the Red Army was just that - 'the rifle' - hence the Moisin Nagant. As Winchesters 95 probably were very scarce amnongst the mushiks of 1941....I'm off the hook - and the question goes to Edge

Varjag

[The Edge]

I'm off the hook - and the question goes to Edge

Folks, see and memorize what happens when trying to be the correct one...

OK, let's stay on the subject - Russian Winchester 95s are remembered for an infamous episode... Which one - and - what role ? :roll:

(Hint: that role was kinda 'indirect' one )