German use of wooden 7.92mm rounds in combat

[Simon H]

Thanks for the response folks! I see no reason to doubt someone who was there and saw it. I think another talk with him will be necessary.

Cheers
Si.

[aardvark]

Woodrn tiped ammo goes back to the 1880's when the Commision 88 rifle and the 8x57J round were introduced.A wooden bullet blank was created at this time for training use ,the Germany continued to use it till the end of WWII.What the vet may have heard was a special round called a "screaming bullet",these were designed to scare and demoralize enemy troops. IT sound like it may have worked to a point.P.S. what caliber is the Finnish round talked about above?

[Mark V]

P.S. what caliber is the Finnish round talked about above?

7.62 x 39

[Simon H]

The veteran was adamant about these wooden rounds being used in combat, although I got the feeling he might have been confused about when he encountered it - it may have been nearer the wars end, which would tie up with the desperation of enemy troops to fight off an attack.

When I mentioned that these can't have been ballistically very reliable he retorted with "well you stand in front of a German fireing these ****** things and see how good they were".

As I said before, I have no reason to doubt this old man - he's not trying to create an "urban myth". He still has his nightmares to live with every day.

There has to be photographic evidence of this somewhere in the PRO or medical records.

[Zygmunt]

I understand that mortar bombs easily detonate in trees, above the heads of troops, and that the wood splinters thus generated considerably increase the lethality of the bomb (as well as the fact that it is an 'airburst' because of the height of the tree). If this veteran was under small-arms fire at the same time as being mortared, he may have concluded that the small-arms fire included wooden bullets.

I suppose this just confirms that in combat everything gets very screwy, and no-one really knows what's going on. Simon H, I fully understand and commend your belief that veterans should be handled tactfully - the last thing they need is a bunch of civilians like us turning up and telling them what they did or didn't experience!

Zygmunt

[Harri]

P.S. what caliber is the Finnish round talked about above?

7.62 x 39

There are also 7.62 x 53R snot-heads for old rifles and MGs.

[Simon H]

IIf this veteran was under small-arms fire at the same time as being mortared, he may have concluded that the small-arms fire included wooden bullets.

I understand what you mean, but I wouldn't even think of asking him that because I'm sure he knew the difference between small arms fire and being shelled.

I will keep asking other vets to see if they have any similar experiences.

Cheers
Si

[General Patton]

In citizen soldiers, Ambrose(VERY SAD THAT HE'S DEAD, GOD BLESS HIM) he says they use balsa wood training bullets, but the allies thought they were a horrible new weapon that infilicted terrible wounds.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Well, Balsa splinters easily, but I don't think that they would be able to penetrate the skin after 50-100 metres... (it is so light that it would be like throwing a feather...)

Christian

[Mark V]

Hey guys !! These were practise rounds (IIRC also used when firing rifle grenades).

All these stories about their combat use are just wartime propaganda/wishfull thinking/mockery of enemy, that has lived far too long.

[Simon H]

these stories about their combat use are just wartime propaganda/wishfull thinking

RUBBISH!!

[Mark V]

Dear Simon H:

I don't have a doubt that the veteran you have talked is true on his conviction what he experienced. But like Zygmunt said: "(on the battle) no-one really knows what's going on".

You said earlier that veteran recalled the different sound they made when hit to tank. I suppose that this must mean that they were not shot in close-combat ??

Would it be possible to ask veteran to estimate the range that fire came from ??

I had some 7.62 x 39 snot-heads some-time ago, but when i didn't have a gun suitable for that ammo i get rid of them.

Would it be possible that some of our members made a test-shooting with Finnish 7.62 x 39 or 7.62 x 53R snot-heads to determine how far these bullets even fly and how "accurate" they are ??

There is plenty of that kind of ammo around Finland on civilian hands and i think results would be very much comparable to behaviour of German practice-ammo.

So, everyone with Chinese reservist-AK-47 or Pystykorva, we need your help.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

It is also important to remember that most people tend to forget after 50 years, and get facts mixed up. Everyone does that, so it could very well be a mix of experience and propaganda, which have formed the memories of the veteran...

Christian

[Harri]

Would it be possible that some of our members made a test-shooting with Finnish 7.62 x 39 or 7.62 x 53R snot-heads to determine how far these bullets even fly and how "accurate" they are ??

When I was in the army we tried the effect of 7.62 x 39 snot-heads. We shot a small snake on the distance of about 10 - 20 cm (it was very agressive and attacked against the rifle barrel). Shot was more effective than we thought and snake's head went into pieces.

Accuracy can't be very good because wooden "bullet" in snot-head is (usually) hollow and very light. Also its range is short because cartridge contains less powder than normal shots (that is why "impulse amplifier is needed).

[Mark V]

OK.

Now we have some recent, real-life experiences of shooting with wooden-tipped bullets. I made an inquiery on popular Finnish hunting related forum (http://www.metsastys.net) and i got immediately several shooting experiences. This is natural because like you may know, here in Finland we have a conscript army and term "Besorg" is very well known also here.

I have translated the comments i got as good i can. I have shortened some comments if it doesn't contain information about behaviour of Finnish snot-heads when fired without impulse-amplifier/bullet-crusher.

There is ofcourse only rough similarity between these experiences and actual behaviour of WW2-era German wooden tipped practice rounds. We don't know the loadind, wood-type, or construction of those bullets, but i think results are still comparable, at least to some degree.



OK, here are the answers i got:
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- From five (5) metres not a sign of hit on the rifle-target. AK-type weapon was in use.

- Shot from two (2) metres: Wooden bullet penetrated cartboard of rifle-target, but did not penetrate second sheet of cartboard behind it. Bullet hit target sideways and half metres away from the point of aim !

- Shot from ten (10) metres: Not a sign of hit on the rifle-target, alltough it is possible that in this shot only primer went off.

- Snot-head of assault rifle weights 0.3 grams. It is loaded with 0.65 grams of N310 gunpowder.

- Most snot-heads are hollow. If range is less than two (2) metres eye-injury is possible. Most bullets disintegrate immediately when leaving barrel.

Different kind of practice rounds:
http://www.metsastys.net/discus/messages/1934/20164.jpg

- Safety distance in Finnish Army is 50 metres. It is possible that bullet contains harder bit of wood or even a metal fragment that hasn't been noticed during manufacturing process. That safety distance isn't there for nothing.

- Propability to hit archieve a hit from 20 metres is very small, alltough it depends what you are shooting at. It is possible that fragments of bullets might fly even longer but they don't have enough energy to cause any significant damage. On my own experience some bullets disintegrate when leaving barrel. Finnish armys safety distance of 50 metres is more against the possibility that live combat-ammo is shot accidentally through impulse-amplifier/bullet-crusher, or if impulse-amplifier/bullet-crusher comes off during firing.

- I have been shot at several rounds with snot-heads and without impulse-amplifier/bullet-crusher from about 50 metres. I didn't notice anything...
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I think the answers speak from themselves.

These bullets doesn't have energy to cause any significant damage outside range of few metres, some of them tend to disintegrade immediately when leaving barrel and it is possible to to miss the target (size of human body) from two (2) metres !! These bullets fly everywhere but not in the direction of aim.