Prussian Uniforms in the 2nd Schleswig War

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schutzearsch
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Prussian Uniforms in the 2nd Schleswig War

#1

Post by schutzearsch » 15 Jan 2018, 01:13

I recently saw the Series 1864
And I mostly liked it tough it is full with historical inaccuracies and the depcition of some of the historic figures was a bit edgyand flat...Monrad is depcited as a pervert maniac, Wrangel as an grumpy old guy with beginning Alzheimers desease, and de Meza is basically Monk as a General in the 19th century. Pilou Asbaeck however was great he realy seems to know how to portrait a serious douchebag.
The series also had somewhat of a mythical element wich I found very disturbing.
But it pictures and battle szene where great and I kinda liked the way the narrative was build up.

However I have a question and hope someone here has an answer for me.

I was a little surprised about the portrayal of the Prussian troops wearing the Krätzchen insteat of the Pickelhaube (esepcially the Infnatry) and wearing white armbands/brassards on the left arm.

Usually I would assume a mistake by the creators of the show but there is historical material confirming this kind of Uniform.

I found two Paintings one by Camphausen and one by Richard Knöttel showing the Prussian Infantry at Dybbol with Krätzchen and white brassard on the left Arm

Camphausen

Knötel

So...what about it?
Did Prussian Troops in the Second Schlesswig War wear Krätzchen instead of the famous Pickelhaube and white armbands? And if yes...why?
With the armbands I would assume Identification...since the Danish Army whore dark blue and the Prussian Army did as well and armbands have a history of beaing used for identification I would assume this is the most likely possibility.
But what about the Krätzchen? Maybe because it was a harsh winter in cold Denmark because of the metalparts of the Pickelhaube?

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Waleed Y. Majeed
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Re: Prussian Uniforms in the 2nd Schleswig War

#2

Post by Waleed Y. Majeed » 15 Jan 2018, 20:48

Very good questions. I found a danish site which mentions the early red cross first wore a white armband but changed this practice and added a red cross during the battle. The reason for this was the many various units and uniforms of the austro-prussian armies also used armbands as a mean of identification. There's actually a red cross memorial at Dybbøl, erected in 1989 by the danish and german RC societies. So that should answer the armband question.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna ... t_Movement

For the use of the pickelhaube I would guess it was not fully implemented as standard headgear for all the "german" states involved.
One of the links I found in another thread mentions 1867 being the year it became standard. Maybe the later use was to differentiate prussian soldiers from their former austrian ally after the 1866 war. But I'm not sure at all.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 0&t=233048

A question I have is the use of the white/black flags in the paintings. Was the civil prussian flag not black/white. So why was the civil flag used - and in reverse order?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Prussia

Personally I preferred the shorter film version of the series. Less bla bla bla etc. :)

waleed


schutzearsch
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Re: Prussian Uniforms in the 2nd Schleswig War

#3

Post by schutzearsch » 15 Jan 2018, 21:23

Thank you for your answer Waleed.

About the pickelhaube...you're right it wasn't fully implemented as a standard headgear for all the german states. A vide vareity of headgeras was used in ther german armies from the pickelhaube (Prussia, Hessen-Kassel and -Darmstadt, and most of the Saxon and most (or alsmost if not all of them) of the Thuringian states to a Kepi style headgrear (Baden, Württemberg and Oldenburg) the Tschako (Hannover) and the Raupenhelm (Tarleton style helmet) (Kingdoms of Saxon and Bavaria).
But most of the German States did not fight in the 2nd Schlesswig War Prussia and Austria where the only ones.
Most other states of the German Confederation didn't even aprove the attack on Denmark.
Also the Regiments in question from the Series and the two paintincs clearly where prussian regiments.
These where the 3rd and 4th foot guards (3. und 4. Garde Regiment zu Fuß)
So there must be another explanation.

About the flags in the paintings.
You are absolutley right. the prussian civil flag was black and white not the other way around as shown in the paintings.
While the prussian war flag was white with the prussian eagle in the center and the iron cross in the left upper corner.
Usually I would asume a mistake but it's a little odd that two painters made the same mistake (tough it's not impossible maybe one draw inspiration from the other).
The only explanation I could come up with is the following.
In the late 19th century the prussian war flag was changed from a square flag to a flag with a swallow tail.
I know the flag of the CSA in the american civil war was changed because it was confused with a white flag on some occasions.
Maybe there is some similar storry to it.
But this is pure speculation.

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Glenn2438
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Re: Prussian Uniforms in the 2nd Schleswig War

#4

Post by Glenn2438 » 16 Jan 2018, 00:02

The white armband was worn by both Prussian and Austrian troops as a common identifier between the two armies.

The history of Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 13 notes that from the 27th of March 1864 onwards, the cap replaced the helmet for all duties with the helmet being left behind in quarters or collection points (with no further explanation).

Regards
Glenn

schutzearsch
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Re: Prussian Uniforms in the 2nd Schleswig War

#5

Post by schutzearsch » 18 Jan 2018, 19:39

Thanks Glenn! This actually helps me alot. Until your post I could just asume that the Krätzchen (Cap) was worn during the 1864 Campaign now I know it for a fact that at Dybbol the Cap was worn by all prussian forces.
schutzearsch wrote: But most of the German States did not fight in the 2nd Schlesswig War Prussia and Austria where the only ones.
Most other states of the German Confederation didn't even aprove the attack on Denmark.
Just to clarify this Statment which isn't 100% correct

While it is true that most German States did not fight in the war of 1864 it is false that Prussia and Austria where the only German States fighting in it.
Saxony and the Kingdom of Hannover
Though to put this into perspective.
Both of these States each contributed 6 battalions of infantry 6 squadrons of cavalry and about 16 pieces of artillery
While Austria contributed 20 battalions of infantry 10 sqaudons of cavalry and 48 pieces of artillery
And Prussia 37 battalions 29 squadrons 110 pieces.
Saxony and Hannover contributed about 6.400 resp. 6.700 men of infantry to the fighting forces while Austria contributed over 25.000 men of infantry and Prussia over 45.000.

schutzearsch
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Re: Prussian Uniforms in the 2nd Schleswig War

#6

Post by schutzearsch » 21 Jan 2018, 21:47

Waleed Y. Majeed wrote:
A question I have is the use of the white/black flags in the paintings. Was the civil prussian flag not black/white. So why was the civil flag used - and in reverse order?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Prussia
I might have found an answer.

The Flag is the Flag of the Province of Hohenzollern

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Hohenzollern

Which was not only a Pronvice of Prussia but also the home of the House of Hohenzollern which where also the monarchs of Prussia.
So it might have something to do with the Kind of Prussia.

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Waleed Y. Majeed
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Re: Prussian Uniforms in the 2nd Schleswig War

#7

Post by Waleed Y. Majeed » 21 Jan 2018, 22:21

Thanks! So my point of the "various states" and uniforms within the confederation was not all together wrong.

waleed

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