Anti-Tank Warfare
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Richard Anderson
- Member
- Posts: 6400
- Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 22:21
- Location: Bremerton, Washington
Re: Anti-Tank Warfare
Does this really need to be posted ten times in different topic areas?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
Re: Anti-Tank Warfare
Good point Richard. My motivation was not to be a pain or offend here, but to put in different areas in order to get a shotgun blast effect. I was attempting to get other individual opinions from the different topic areas and not just one area. I will not do such a thing again.
My apologies!
KirkR63
My apologies!
KirkR63
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David Thompson
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 23724
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
- Location: USA
Re: Anti-Tank Warfare
KirkR63 -- The forum also has a policy against redundant posts.
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stevebecker
- Member
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: Anti-Tank Warfare
Mate,
Sorry I did not see this until here.
While I have little on the Germans, I did write something on the Australians who formed there first AT unit in early 1918 for use against German or Captured British Tanks.
The unit had a short life and was disbanded as quickly as it was formed after the Tank vis Tank fight around Villers Bret
S.B
Sorry I did not see this until here.
While I have little on the Germans, I did write something on the Australians who formed there first AT unit in early 1918 for use against German or Captured British Tanks.
The unit had a short life and was disbanded as quickly as it was formed after the Tank vis Tank fight around Villers Bret
S.B
Re: Anti-Tank Warfare
Good afternoon stevebecker,
I have been away from the Axis forum site for a while to allow the dust to settle on my improper multi-message concerning antitank warfare. I never knew that Australia created an antitank unit in the First World War. If you would like to share, I would be interested in reading about this. Take care out there.
very respectfully
KirkR63
I have been away from the Axis forum site for a while to allow the dust to settle on my improper multi-message concerning antitank warfare. I never knew that Australia created an antitank unit in the First World War. If you would like to share, I would be interested in reading about this. Take care out there.
very respectfully
KirkR63
Re: Anti-Tank Warfare
To be fair, when posted in this topic area doesn't it become a new topic. Is there an existing thread on anti tank warfare in the First World War?
The Germans had to invent anti tank warfare in a hurry on 15th September on the Somme. They discovered that field guns made pretty effective anti-tank guns and bundles of grenades worked close in. They introduced anti tank rifles, or rather redeployed large calibre rifles hitherto used for piercing armour plated trench shields. The Germans also deployed self propelled 7.5 cm AA guns as an anti tank reserve used to seal off penetrations by tanks, as at Cambrai in November 1917. The WW2 tactic of using AA guns in an anti tank role has its roots in WW1.
By 1918 the British were worried enough by the potential of the Germans to use tanks that detachments of field artillery were assigned anti tank tasks before the Kaiserschlacht. There were anti tank field guns at Villers Bretonnoux when the Germans deployed tanks.
The Germans had to invent anti tank warfare in a hurry on 15th September on the Somme. They discovered that field guns made pretty effective anti-tank guns and bundles of grenades worked close in. They introduced anti tank rifles, or rather redeployed large calibre rifles hitherto used for piercing armour plated trench shields. The Germans also deployed self propelled 7.5 cm AA guns as an anti tank reserve used to seal off penetrations by tanks, as at Cambrai in November 1917. The WW2 tactic of using AA guns in an anti tank role has its roots in WW1.
By 1918 the British were worried enough by the potential of the Germans to use tanks that detachments of field artillery were assigned anti tank tasks before the Kaiserschlacht. There were anti tank field guns at Villers Bretonnoux when the Germans deployed tanks.
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stevebecker
- Member
- Posts: 1470
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: Anti-Tank Warfare
Mate,
This is it, sorry not much as I was writting on the ALH at the time.
Some thing I wrote many years ago;
Australian AT unit France 1918
A lesser known unit of the AIF in WWI was the first recorded unit of the new weapon to counter German Armour.
In May 1918 the AIF was given three 15 Pdr BL anti tank guns to form an anti tank unit.
the unit was formed from the 8 MTMB (Meduium Trench Mortar Battery) 4th Div AIF. and called the 4th Anti Tank Battery and was made up of four officers and 19 men in three sections of one gun each.
The Battery was commanded by Lt Guy Garvin and had Lt's JF Fullerton, F Hutchinson and AEF Smith. And was formed and used around Villers Bretonneux following the German Tank attack in April where the first Tank vis Tank engagement happened.
The Battery appear to of had a short life and soon was disbanded.
The Battery had a number of former LH men in it including;
HILLMAN Henry Harry 1706 Pte 02 LHR 11R to Gnr 42Bty/11 FAB 4-16 to 111Bty 4-17 WIA 20-10-17 L/arm at Passendaele to 8 MTMB 5-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 F&B
KING William Vincent 1169 Pte 6 LHR 8R Tos 12-15 to Gnr 43Bty/11 FAB 3-16 to 41Bty/11 FAB 4-18 to 8 MTMB 5-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 F&B
LAVELL Joseph Rupert 2439 Pte 13 LHR 20R to AATD UK 10-17 to Gnr 111Bty/11 FAB 2-18 to 8 MTMB 5-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 rtn 111Bty/11 FAB 1-19 F&B later WWII
McCUDDEN Phillip Patrick 2260 Pte 2 Remts 8 Sqn to S/Smith to Gnr 39Bty/10 FAB to 8 MTMB 3-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 F&B
O'NEIL James William 3704 Pte 04 LHR 28R to Gnr 43Bty/11 FAB to 8 MTMB 3-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 F&B
SELBY George 1660 Pte 10 LHR 12R to Bdr 4 MTMB to 8 MTMB 3-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 F&B
WILLIAMS Moses William 1672 Pte 02 LHR 12R to 11 BAC 3-16 to 4 DAC 4-16 to Z4A MTMB (1672a) 6-16 to Cpl 10-17 to 8 MTMB 4-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 MID reason not stated F&B
YOUNG Alexander 1903 Pte 8 LHR 13R Tos 2-16 to Gnr 45Bty/12 FAB 4-16 to V4A MTMB 9-16 to 8 MTMB 3-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 to T/Bdr 6-18 WIA 1-6-18 R/leg & gas near Albert F&B
S.B
The 15 Pdr had been issued to the AIF Artillery since 1917 for that job, but as yet they had not been formed into such a unit.
See the photo and details on this site
http://en.wikipedia...._BLC_15_pounder
The Ordnance BLC 15 pounder gun (BLC stood for BL Converted) was a modernised version of the obsolete BL 15 pounder 7 cwt gun, incorporating a recoil and recuperator mechanism above the barrel and modified quicker-opening breech. It was developed to provide Territorial Force artillery brigades with a reasonably modern field gun without incurring the expense of equipping them with the modern 18 pounder. It is the gun which writers usually mean by "15 pounder gun" in World
Many modifications were made to the old 15 pounder barrels to adapt them to a new carriage with a recoil buffer and recuperator above the barrel similar to the 13 pounder design. Previously the barrels had been mounted directly on the carriage by trunnions. Now the barrel was suspended from a forged-steel inverted U-shaped cradle which had trunnions to attach it to the carriage. The trunnions, sight brackets and elevating gear attachment lugs were removed from the barrel. The radial T-vent hole on top was plugged, holes in the jacket passing through the trunnion centres were sealed with screwed steel plugs, and the holes in the hood for fitting tangent sights were plugged with white metal alloy.
The 3-motion breech was replaced by a single-motion interrupted screw breech which had an axial T vent running through it into the chamber, designed to take a T friction tube.
The new firing mechanism involved a new "push" type T friction tube which was inserted into the axial breech vent. The crosspiece of the T was positioned pointing upwards. A long layer's guard was added to the left side of the cradle projecting behind the breech. A spring-loaded firing handle was built into the layer's guard. When cocked by pulling back and then released, it sprang forward and struck a firing lever on the breech, which translated the forward motion to a downward motion and propelled a firing plunger into the T of the friction tube which in turn ignited the cordite propellant charge.
Hope its of interest
Cheers
S.B
This is it, sorry not much as I was writting on the ALH at the time.
Some thing I wrote many years ago;
Australian AT unit France 1918
A lesser known unit of the AIF in WWI was the first recorded unit of the new weapon to counter German Armour.
In May 1918 the AIF was given three 15 Pdr BL anti tank guns to form an anti tank unit.
the unit was formed from the 8 MTMB (Meduium Trench Mortar Battery) 4th Div AIF. and called the 4th Anti Tank Battery and was made up of four officers and 19 men in three sections of one gun each.
The Battery was commanded by Lt Guy Garvin and had Lt's JF Fullerton, F Hutchinson and AEF Smith. And was formed and used around Villers Bretonneux following the German Tank attack in April where the first Tank vis Tank engagement happened.
The Battery appear to of had a short life and soon was disbanded.
The Battery had a number of former LH men in it including;
HILLMAN Henry Harry 1706 Pte 02 LHR 11R to Gnr 42Bty/11 FAB 4-16 to 111Bty 4-17 WIA 20-10-17 L/arm at Passendaele to 8 MTMB 5-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 F&B
KING William Vincent 1169 Pte 6 LHR 8R Tos 12-15 to Gnr 43Bty/11 FAB 3-16 to 41Bty/11 FAB 4-18 to 8 MTMB 5-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 F&B
LAVELL Joseph Rupert 2439 Pte 13 LHR 20R to AATD UK 10-17 to Gnr 111Bty/11 FAB 2-18 to 8 MTMB 5-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 rtn 111Bty/11 FAB 1-19 F&B later WWII
McCUDDEN Phillip Patrick 2260 Pte 2 Remts 8 Sqn to S/Smith to Gnr 39Bty/10 FAB to 8 MTMB 3-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 F&B
O'NEIL James William 3704 Pte 04 LHR 28R to Gnr 43Bty/11 FAB to 8 MTMB 3-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 F&B
SELBY George 1660 Pte 10 LHR 12R to Bdr 4 MTMB to 8 MTMB 3-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 F&B
WILLIAMS Moses William 1672 Pte 02 LHR 12R to 11 BAC 3-16 to 4 DAC 4-16 to Z4A MTMB (1672a) 6-16 to Cpl 10-17 to 8 MTMB 4-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 MID reason not stated F&B
YOUNG Alexander 1903 Pte 8 LHR 13R Tos 2-16 to Gnr 45Bty/12 FAB 4-16 to V4A MTMB 9-16 to 8 MTMB 3-18 T/att 4 Anti Tank Bty 5-18 to T/Bdr 6-18 WIA 1-6-18 R/leg & gas near Albert F&B
S.B
The 15 Pdr had been issued to the AIF Artillery since 1917 for that job, but as yet they had not been formed into such a unit.
See the photo and details on this site
http://en.wikipedia...._BLC_15_pounder
The Ordnance BLC 15 pounder gun (BLC stood for BL Converted) was a modernised version of the obsolete BL 15 pounder 7 cwt gun, incorporating a recoil and recuperator mechanism above the barrel and modified quicker-opening breech. It was developed to provide Territorial Force artillery brigades with a reasonably modern field gun without incurring the expense of equipping them with the modern 18 pounder. It is the gun which writers usually mean by "15 pounder gun" in World
Many modifications were made to the old 15 pounder barrels to adapt them to a new carriage with a recoil buffer and recuperator above the barrel similar to the 13 pounder design. Previously the barrels had been mounted directly on the carriage by trunnions. Now the barrel was suspended from a forged-steel inverted U-shaped cradle which had trunnions to attach it to the carriage. The trunnions, sight brackets and elevating gear attachment lugs were removed from the barrel. The radial T-vent hole on top was plugged, holes in the jacket passing through the trunnion centres were sealed with screwed steel plugs, and the holes in the hood for fitting tangent sights were plugged with white metal alloy.
The 3-motion breech was replaced by a single-motion interrupted screw breech which had an axial T vent running through it into the chamber, designed to take a T friction tube.
The new firing mechanism involved a new "push" type T friction tube which was inserted into the axial breech vent. The crosspiece of the T was positioned pointing upwards. A long layer's guard was added to the left side of the cradle projecting behind the breech. A spring-loaded firing handle was built into the layer's guard. When cocked by pulling back and then released, it sprang forward and struck a firing lever on the breech, which translated the forward motion to a downward motion and propelled a firing plunger into the T of the friction tube which in turn ignited the cordite propellant charge.
Hope its of interest
Cheers
S.B
Re: Anti-Tank Warfare
Hi
The BEF GHQ pamphlet SS 203 'Instructions for Anti-Tank Defence', published in February 1918 gave instructions for the different arms as to their role and methods against tanks: A - Artillery Action, both barrages and direct fire. B - Infantry Action. C - Machine Gun Action. D - RFC Action. E - Tank Action. F - Use of Obstacles (including 'mines').
There was no requirement for special anti-tank gun as it was felt that ordinary field artillery was adequate to deal with tanks. It was defence in depth which would mean artillery barrages on concentrations of enemy tanks behind German lines (if spotted, one of the RFC roles), also as they crossed no-mans land, then direct fire by forward placed field guns. If they penetrated then batteries to the rear would move selected 18pdrs to a position to engage directly, this could also include 60 pdr batteries if they got that far.
It could also be useful to look at the War Diaries at different formation levels as you will probably find 'Defence Plans' that go into detail of the various aspects of defence of their locality.
Mike
The BEF GHQ pamphlet SS 203 'Instructions for Anti-Tank Defence', published in February 1918 gave instructions for the different arms as to their role and methods against tanks: A - Artillery Action, both barrages and direct fire. B - Infantry Action. C - Machine Gun Action. D - RFC Action. E - Tank Action. F - Use of Obstacles (including 'mines').
There was no requirement for special anti-tank gun as it was felt that ordinary field artillery was adequate to deal with tanks. It was defence in depth which would mean artillery barrages on concentrations of enemy tanks behind German lines (if spotted, one of the RFC roles), also as they crossed no-mans land, then direct fire by forward placed field guns. If they penetrated then batteries to the rear would move selected 18pdrs to a position to engage directly, this could also include 60 pdr batteries if they got that far.
It could also be useful to look at the War Diaries at different formation levels as you will probably find 'Defence Plans' that go into detail of the various aspects of defence of their locality.
Mike