german 1. & 2. army 1915 > merged to 4. army?

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Eva Lenz
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german 1. & 2. army 1915 > merged to 4. army?

Post by Eva Lenz » 19 Jan 2004 16:15

could anyone tell me what became of the 1st & 2nd german army after the battle at the marne? I know that another 4th army was formed to prevent the french to get through the lines between the 1. & 2. army (i think at ypern), and a friend of me suggested that maybe the two were merged and some other kompanien added into the 4th?

thx
eva

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USAF1986
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Post by USAF1986 » 19 Jan 2004 19:17

Hi! Here is what the Die Schlachten und Gefechte des Großen Krieges, 1914-1918 (compiled and published in 1919 by the Great General Staff) gives for these armies. I hope this helps out!

Regards,
Shawn
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dead-cat
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Post by dead-cat » 19 Jan 2004 19:47

it looks like the 1st army was disbanded after 17th sept. 1915 (commander at that time Gend d. Inf v. Fabeck ).
the army was reorganized 19th july 1916 (as the scan posted by USAF1986 acknowledges) being formed by the northen units of the 2nd army

not really a merger, more a split of the 2nd army (who recived a new commander the same day too).

source: http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1914/gruppew.html

but since von klucks army was overstrenght in 1914, i'm sure the army was reorganized after sept. 1914. does anybody know which army the Tannenberg reinforcement corps were taken from?

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Post by Gwynn Compton » 19 Jan 2004 23:32

I'll take a peak when I get home, but I've got a feeling they were only recently formed reserve formations, about to be deployed to the west, though I'm not 100% on this.

Gwynn

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Post by Eva Lenz » 20 Jan 2004 10:51

my "brockhaus" from 1925 only says that 6 Armeekorps & 1 Kavalleriedivision was withdrawn before the battle at the marne to aid the eastern front.

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dead-cat
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Post by dead-cat » 20 Jan 2004 17:11

IIRC, B. Tuchmann, in her book "The Guns of August" states that they were taken from right wing, which would mean 1st and 2nd army but i don't have the book handy so i cannot check.

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Post by Eva Lenz » 20 Jan 2004 17:33

dead-cat wrote: [...] they were taken from right wing, which would mean 1st and 2nd army but i don't have the book handy so i cannot check.


it they were taken from the first it would fit with the 1st army being almost gone during the battle at the somme. but I doubt that Moltke was that stupid to take all the reinforcement for the eastern front from one army at the western...

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Post by Eva Lenz » 20 Jan 2004 17:35

thank you very much USAF & dead-cat, the link & scan was very helpful!

regards
eva

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dead-cat
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Post by dead-cat » 21 Jan 2004 10:14

it they were taken from the first it would fit with the 1st army being almost gone during the battle at the somme. but I doubt that Moltke was that stupid to take all the reinforcement for the eastern front from one army at the western...



somme? i think you meant marne? the first army was around 250 000 or so, strong with a regular army size being around 100 000.
2 corps means 4 divisions or around 50 000 men. if you take 1 from the 1st and 1 from the 2nd army that still leaves the 1st with around 225 000.
besides Moltke allready WAS that stupid to change the right wing /left wing ratio from 7:1 to 3:1 and thus ruined the Schlieffen plan. so i wouldn't completly rule that out :D

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Post by Eva Lenz » 21 Jan 2004 10:55

dead-cat wrote: somme? i think you meant marne?


nah, the marne was 1914, while the 1st army was disbanded & reorganised in 1915. (or did I get something wrong? thought that was the resumee from the posted above...)

dead-cat wrote: the first army was around 250 000 or so, strong with a regular army size being around 100 000.
2 corps means 4 divisions or around 50 000 men. if you take 1 from the 1st and 1 from the 2nd army that still leaves the 1st with around 225 000.


do you have detailed dates & numbers about the 1st & 2nd army during the war? like exactly where they were stationed, who were lienenants and stuff?

dead-cat wrote: besides Moltke allready WAS that stupid to change the right wing /left wing ratio from 7:1 to 3:1 and thus ruined the Schlieffen plan. so i wouldn't completly rule that out :D


;)

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 21 Jan 2004 11:35

The two Corps sent East in late August 1914 were the Guard Reserve Corps from 2nd Army and the 11th Corps from 3rd Army.Both had been involved in the seige of Namur which fell on the 25th August.

1st Army also provided the 3rd Reserve Corps for the reduction of Antwerp and initially 4th Reserve Corps for the occupation of Brussels;the latter unit bringing up the rear and right flank was first in action at the Battle of the Marne.

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dead-cat
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Post by dead-cat » 21 Jan 2004 12:51

thanx alot Moulded.

i belive to have read that the 2nd army was similar in number with the 1st. can anyone confirm/infirm that? does anyone have realtively exact numbers for the strenghts of the different armies in Aug. 1914?

do you have detailed dates & numbers about the 1st & 2nd army during the war? like exactly where they were stationed, who were lienenants and stuff?

sorry no, i need to dig when i'm back home. till' then maybe someone can help?

nah, the marne was 1914, while the 1st army was disbanded & reorganised in 1915. (or did I get something wrong? thought that was the resumee from the posted above...)

no i was still talking about 1914. i said, i belive the 1st army, being overstreght, was reorganized when things settled a bit on the western front in nov/dec. 1914.

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