Prussian Guard
- Glenn2438
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Landwehr
Peter,
for all intents and purposes, the Garde-Landwehr regimental organization just like its line counterparts in the regional Landwehrbezirks was really just an administrative organisation with no tactical function in peacetime. Only on mobilisation were fully established Reserve and Landwehr regiments/battalions as component fighting organisations formed.
It is not true to assert that any reform in the 1880s saw the demise of the Landwehr corps of officers. Just a quick glance at any of the published army lists will show that at any one time prior to and during the war thousands of officers held Landwehr commissions. The Landwehr officer was in effect either just an older or less fit/committed reserve officer. Those reserve officers who although technically of an age when they could pass into the Landwehr but chose to remain as reserve officers could do so provided they were recommended and physically fit. The major difference from an organisational point of view is that reserve personnel in peacetime were affiliated to a specific regiment whilst those of the Landwehr were controlled and administered solely by the Landwehrbezirk (recruiting district).
Regards
Glenn
for all intents and purposes, the Garde-Landwehr regimental organization just like its line counterparts in the regional Landwehrbezirks was really just an administrative organisation with no tactical function in peacetime. Only on mobilisation were fully established Reserve and Landwehr regiments/battalions as component fighting organisations formed.
It is not true to assert that any reform in the 1880s saw the demise of the Landwehr corps of officers. Just a quick glance at any of the published army lists will show that at any one time prior to and during the war thousands of officers held Landwehr commissions. The Landwehr officer was in effect either just an older or less fit/committed reserve officer. Those reserve officers who although technically of an age when they could pass into the Landwehr but chose to remain as reserve officers could do so provided they were recommended and physically fit. The major difference from an organisational point of view is that reserve personnel in peacetime were affiliated to a specific regiment whilst those of the Landwehr were controlled and administered solely by the Landwehrbezirk (recruiting district).
Regards
Glenn
Thanks for the clarification Glenn.
My English written source must be wrong.
Just another question if you don't mind---the 2.Garde-Reserve-Division consisted of RIR 15,RIR 55,RIR 77,RIR 99.Would it be fair to assume that this was only a Garde formation in name only?Our did a formation like RIR 15 consist of reservists who had done their active service in a Garde regiment,or a mix, partly of reservists that had formerly served in IR 15 and others who had served in a Garde Regiment as well?
Regards,
Peter
My English written source must be wrong.
Just another question if you don't mind---the 2.Garde-Reserve-Division consisted of RIR 15,RIR 55,RIR 77,RIR 99.Would it be fair to assume that this was only a Garde formation in name only?Our did a formation like RIR 15 consist of reservists who had done their active service in a Garde regiment,or a mix, partly of reservists that had formerly served in IR 15 and others who had served in a Garde Regiment as well?
Regards,
Peter
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Peter I do not think this is correct at least it is news to me. Many Officer helmets can be identified as Landwehr and officers moved by request to those levels. Where did the demise thought come from?The 1886 reform also saw the demise of the Landwehr officer---termed by some as "bourgeois liberals".Only Regular and Reserve officers existed after that date.
VR/Joe
Joe,
From History of the German Army,Keith Simpson:
My understanding then---before 1886 you could be a Landwehr officer without being a former Regular or Reserve officer:after that date the Landwehr rank was only open to those that had proven themselves in a regular or Reservist role.
From History of the German Army,Keith Simpson:
Simpson is talking about the demise of the old Landwehr officer notion,established in 1808,that "anyone with the right education and qualities could become an officer."This was the militia era of the Landwehr during the Napoleonic Wars.The events of 1848 enforced further the need for the militia to be under effective control....the vehicle by which sufficient candidates fulfilling the necessary social,educational and political background could enter the German military establishment was the Reserveoffiizierskorps..the officer corps had hated and despised the Landwehr officers because they were bourgeois liberals who had dangerous notions of political and military independence.By 1886 the Landwehr had been reorganised so that the reserves were better coordinated with the regular army and under its effective control.The old liberal Landwehr officer was replaced by the conservative reserve officer,who although bourgeois,was to ape the manners,attitude and life-style of the traditional Prussian army officer...
My understanding then---before 1886 you could be a Landwehr officer without being a former Regular or Reserve officer:after that date the Landwehr rank was only open to those that had proven themselves in a regular or Reservist role.
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Peter,
ok now it becomes somewhat clearer. I have 60 pages done on my next diatribe and I guess I am understanding the rotation of Reserve to Landwehr. Interestingly in their attempt to ape the regulars reserve officers had far more duels and needs for the courts of honor than regulars. Regulars did not think much of Reserves and even less of Landwehr. The entire One Year volunteer thing is poorly understood by most folks, even pretty knowledgeable types.
ok now it becomes somewhat clearer. I have 60 pages done on my next diatribe and I guess I am understanding the rotation of Reserve to Landwehr. Interestingly in their attempt to ape the regulars reserve officers had far more duels and needs for the courts of honor than regulars. Regulars did not think much of Reserves and even less of Landwehr. The entire One Year volunteer thing is poorly understood by most folks, even pretty knowledgeable types.
Prinz Eitel (on horse) and the 1st Foot Guards,Erste Garde Regiment zu Fuss,1914.
http://forum.axishistory.com/files/eitel_1914.jpg
http://forum.axishistory.com/files/eitel_1914.jpg
A photo of a Garde Stahlhelm can be found here.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... hp?t=93029
The Gardekorps hand-painted insignia on the helmet was not widespread,and if I'm correct only adopted by one or two Garde regiments in the field.
A memento from the Argonne battle as suggested by the US postal address on its underside.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... hp?t=93029
The Gardekorps hand-painted insignia on the helmet was not widespread,and if I'm correct only adopted by one or two Garde regiments in the field.
A memento from the Argonne battle as suggested by the US postal address on its underside.
Allied Intelligence rating of the Garde divisions,late 1918.
German divisions were rated as 1st,2nd,3rd,or 4th Class by OHL:the Allies similarly rated opposing enemy formations as A,B,C,or D in capabilities.
A Class--"superior and suitable for all attack and defensive fighting".
B Class--"good and suitable for all attack and defensive fighting".
C Class--"average divisions without special or remarkable combat characteristics".
D Class--"inferior, only suitable for calm front sectors".
Garde Ersatz Div-B(+)
1.Garde Div-A(+)
1.Garde Res Div-A
2.Garde Div-A
2.Garde Res Div-B(+)
3.Garde Div-A
4.Garde Div-A
5.Garde Div-A(+)
Garde Kavallerie Div-B(+)
http://www.agw14-18.de/formgesch/formatio_div.html
The magnitude of the Gardekorps losses in the war can only be guessed at,at best.Regimental histories would give the tally for each unit but I have seen no compliation of any figures above this level.
Finalised Reichsarchiv Casualty estimates for Land Forces released in the late 30's
Total war dead,Land Forces: 2,037,000
Total wounded,Land Forces: 4,215,000
Total POWs,Land Forces: 860,000
Total: 7,112,000
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=69350
Nine German Garde divisions,out of the 251 German divisions that participated in the war,could possibly indicate that only 3.6% of German soldiers had the 'privilege' of serving in the Garde.An inexact science but in the best case,3.6% of total German casualties of 7,112,000 means 256,000 Guardsmen dead,wounded or taken prisoner.A worse case scenario would take into account that the 'A' class Garde formations saw more heavy fighting than the average division,and the inclusion of many static,low combat value Landwehr divisions in the total of 251 divisions needs to be factored in also.Garde casualties of over 300,000 in the war could be one conclusion then. i.e over 30,000 men per division(a nearly 200% turnover of a 1914 division in manpower).
German divisions were rated as 1st,2nd,3rd,or 4th Class by OHL:the Allies similarly rated opposing enemy formations as A,B,C,or D in capabilities.
A Class--"superior and suitable for all attack and defensive fighting".
B Class--"good and suitable for all attack and defensive fighting".
C Class--"average divisions without special or remarkable combat characteristics".
D Class--"inferior, only suitable for calm front sectors".
Garde Ersatz Div-B(+)
1.Garde Div-A(+)
1.Garde Res Div-A
2.Garde Div-A
2.Garde Res Div-B(+)
3.Garde Div-A
4.Garde Div-A
5.Garde Div-A(+)
Garde Kavallerie Div-B(+)
http://www.agw14-18.de/formgesch/formatio_div.html
The magnitude of the Gardekorps losses in the war can only be guessed at,at best.Regimental histories would give the tally for each unit but I have seen no compliation of any figures above this level.
Finalised Reichsarchiv Casualty estimates for Land Forces released in the late 30's
Total war dead,Land Forces: 2,037,000
Total wounded,Land Forces: 4,215,000
Total POWs,Land Forces: 860,000
Total: 7,112,000
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=69350
Nine German Garde divisions,out of the 251 German divisions that participated in the war,could possibly indicate that only 3.6% of German soldiers had the 'privilege' of serving in the Garde.An inexact science but in the best case,3.6% of total German casualties of 7,112,000 means 256,000 Guardsmen dead,wounded or taken prisoner.A worse case scenario would take into account that the 'A' class Garde formations saw more heavy fighting than the average division,and the inclusion of many static,low combat value Landwehr divisions in the total of 251 divisions needs to be factored in also.Garde casualties of over 300,000 in the war could be one conclusion then. i.e over 30,000 men per division(a nearly 200% turnover of a 1914 division in manpower).