Weapons of the Schutztruppen

Discussions on all aspects of the German Colonies and Overseas Expeditions. Hosted by Chris Dale.
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Gew71
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Post by Gew71 » 29 Aug 2006 19:13

Ludwig Löwe Co.,a Jewish owned firm,got the lions share of civilian contracts to manufacture the Gew88.When a few Löwe made rifles proved to be sub-standard,an anti-Semitic Reichstag deputy named Hermann Ahlwarht made a stink about it.Isidore Löwe was exonerated,but it was discovered that a manager had bribed some members of the Prussian Rifle Testing Commission to pass the rifles.The time constraints on the contract were onerous and there was much pressure to get the 88 into service.

Ludwig Löwe Co. would in a few years become the great small arms and munitions cartel of Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabrik.

Vuk
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Post by Vuk » 29 Aug 2006 23:45

Thanks for the info!

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Chris Dale
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Post by Chris Dale » 02 Sep 2006 17:01

I thought it was probably relevant here to mention that I've added a page of photos Colonial Bayonets to the website at http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk .
Cheers
Chris

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Reichskolonialamt
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Post by Reichskolonialamt » 04 Sep 2006 17:18

Chris Dale wrote:I thought it was probably relevant here to mention that I've added a page of photos Colonial Bayonets to the website at http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk .


Artillerie sword, made 1914 for the Schutztruppe??? :roll:

CharlesRollinsWare
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Post by CharlesRollinsWare » 04 Sep 2006 20:26

Gentleman;

There were comments above on the cargo that Sperrbrecher A, SS Rubens (1906, 3,587 BRT, 109m x 15m x 6.5m, builder W. Gray & Co. Ltd., West Hartlepool, England), commanded by Oberleutnant zur See der Reserve Carl F. Christiansen. The despatch of this vessel was a naval affair, done primarily to aid the refitting of the cruiser S.M.S.Königsberg, and her cargo was composed of materials to fulfill this goal. From what I have been able to ascertain, this included 1,600 tons of Westfalen coal, 700 tons of freshwater, 1,000 10,5 cm shells for her guns, two 6 cm naval guns and ammunition for them, provisions, clothing, and medical supplies. Only after the naval needs were fulfilled were additions made for the Schutztruppe that included 1,800 K98 rifles, some machine guns, and 3 million 7,9 mm cartridges, all place on top of the coal.

On the other hand, SS Marie (ex. British Dacre Hill, 2,674 BRT), commanded by Leutnant zur See der Reserve Konrad Sörensen was outfitted entirely by the Colonial office for the Schutztruppe and carried in her cargo four 10,5 cm howitzers with 1,000 shells each, two 7,5 cm mountain guns with ammunition, 5 mines, 4 machineguns, 1,500 hand grenades, 2,000 rifle grenades, four carriages for the Königsberg guns, 9 cm shells for the Schutztruppe's Krupp Ca/73 guns, 2,000 K98 rifles, four million rifle cartridges, 15,000 Askari uniforms, European clothing, 200 kg quinine, vegetable seeds, mail and newspapers, war decorations, paper (later used for the production of paper money), crucibles (used for the production of gold coins), spare parts for the railway, telegraph equipment etc. There significant failure was the fact that all byut two of the Schutztruppes C/73 guns were 7,5 cm, not 9 cm.

I hope this is of interest.

Mark E. Horan

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Chris Dale
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Post by Chris Dale » 05 Sep 2006 02:20

Reichskolonialamt wrote:Artillerie sword, made 1914 for the Schutztruppe???


Mmmm... Good point! It is possible it was made and shipped out before August 1914. Or more likely that it was made but never issued... I will ask the owner to verify the date stamp. But I do think K.S. was the marking for DSWA Schutruppe issue....

But what a good collection of bayonets!

Cheers
Chris

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Chris Dale
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Post by Chris Dale » 05 Sep 2006 02:23

CharlesRollinsWare wrote:Gentleman;

I hope this is of interest.

Mark E. Horan


Yes, your listings are of great interest. Thank you very much.
Cheers
Chris

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Reichskolonialamt
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Post by Reichskolonialamt » 05 Sep 2006 18:15

Chris Dale wrote:But I do think K.S. was the marking for DSWA Schutruppe issue


A friend of mine suggests these two possibilies:

KS for "Kriegsschule" (Prussian mark during WW1) or
KS for "Kavallerie-Schule") (German marking, Regulation of 1923)

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Chris Dale
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Post by Chris Dale » 18 Sep 2006 00:56

Hello Reichskolonialamt,

Yes, the W14 marking for a DSWA sword is odd, but then surely it makes more sense than a W14 marking for a war-school issue and certainly a W14 marking for a 1923 issue is odd?

Now I'm not sure of the origins of this sword at all.... but then I don't know much about swords. Does anybody know what kind of a sword it is? Is it an artillery sword? With the single loop on the scabbard and quite pronounced curve it looks like quite a distinctive sword, but I've never seen any quite like it in DSWA photos.

Any more opinions on this curious weapon?

Cheers
Chris

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Reichskolonialamt
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Post by Reichskolonialamt » 18 Sep 2006 09:20

The point is, that there have been very few swords used in the colonies.
The Traditionsverband just added some good articles from Mr. Selzer:

"Die Offizierseitengewehre in den deutschen Schutzgebieten" (Teile 1-4)
"Der Säbel der berittenen Kaiserlichen Landespolizei in Deutsch-Südwestafrika"
"Die blanken Waffen der Polizeitruppen in Togo und Kamerun"

and an older one:

"Die Verwendung des preussischen Säbels für berittene Infanterie-Offiziere in den deutschen Schutzgebieten"

look here: http://www.traditionsverband.de/magazin/index.html

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Chris Dale
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Post by Chris Dale » 19 Sep 2006 21:45

Hi Reichskolonialamt,

Those are great articles (as are all the ones on your site).

You're right though not many swords were used in the German colonies it seems from photos. The owner of the sword in question has just sent me a piece of the book "'The Imperial German Regimental Marking" by Jeff Noll. It seems to be a listing of all the possible unit markings on edged weapons.

It mentions the Kriegschule, as being marked with a "K" and the initial of the name of the school. eg "KD" for Kriegschule Dresden. There were no Kriegschule in towns begining with S, and so no KS marking for them.

The only KS marking it lists is for the Kaiserliche Schutztruppe, so I believe whether this sword actually went to DSWA or not, it was marked and intended for use there.

Cheers
Chris

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Reichskolonialamt
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Post by Reichskolonialamt » 20 Sep 2006 16:28

Chris Dale wrote: It mentions the Kriegschule, as being marked with a "K" and the initial of the name of the school. eg "KD" for Kriegschule Dresden. There were no Kriegschule in towns begining with S, and so no KS marking for them.


Yes that´s right. My fault, I missunderstood his message.

The only KS marking it lists is for the Kaiserliche Schutztruppe, so I believe whether this sword actually went to DSWA or not, it was marked and intended for use there.

..or the Kavallerie-Schule (est. 1919 in Hannover), which was surely equipped with weapons out of the depots. Cavallery-sword for Cavallery-School.. sounds possible, or?

Which unit do you think may have used these cavallery swords in the colonies? Southwestern soldiers on their horses? As far as I know, only the officers got swords, the IOD (Infanterie Offiziers Degen). I don´t see this cavallery-sword in any regulation concerning the colonies.

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Chris Dale
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Post by Chris Dale » 22 Sep 2006 00:40

Hi Reichskolonialamt,

My doubts about it being from the Kavallerie-Schule established in 1919 are due to the W14 mark which should identify it as being issued in 1914.

But, yes you're right not many swords were issued in the colonies. No, I don't think it's for troopers of the Schutztruppe. The owner thinks this pattern of sword is usually associated with the artillery, possibly it was used by an artillery officer? That's only a guess of course.

You're right though, this kind of sword is not regualtion... but then we have seen many non-regulation items in the colonies? I've not found a photo of this type of sword used by the Schutztruppe... but it does appear to be marked for the Schutztruppe...

Cheers
Chris

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Reichskolonialamt
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Post by Reichskolonialamt » 22 Sep 2006 06:04

Chris Dale wrote:My doubts about it being from the Kavallerie-Schule established in 1919 are due to the W14 mark which should identify it as being issued in 1914.


The mark tells us the date of production, I mean when it left the factory, not the date it was given to an unit.

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 16 Jul 2007 09:03

Carl-Friedrich Christiansen,commander of the Rubens:

viewtopic.php?p=606156#606156

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