Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Discussions on all aspects of the German Colonies and Overseas Expeditions. Hosted by Chris Dale.
User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1914
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 06 Aug 2013 10:33

I love "then and now" type photos, thanks Holger...

Cheers
Chris

CPT Bob
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 06 May 2013 23:40

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by CPT Bob » 05 Sep 2013 16:46

Adjusting Elevation and Direction


The Original Naval Mount


The Traverse & Elevation adjustment mechanism was fixed to the “yoke” that rotated on the pedestal. It did not move when the gun fired and the barrel recoiled within the “cradle”.

“Traverse” was adjusted with the rearward-facing wheel with the long shaft that engaged the teeth on the Pedestal.

I am unsure, but it is likely that the “Handle Bar” disengaged the traverse mechanism, thereby allowing the gun to rotate freely.

“Elevation” was adjusted with the left-facing wheel. The elevation adjustment “teeth” were bolted to the Cradle; the adjustment Wheel was fixed to the mount.

**note** The wheels were made of Brass and they were easy to remove. Many quickly became “Trophies” ; therefore many are missing in post-capture photographs.



The DAR Carriage


The Elevation Wheel and Teeth are clearly seen in many photographs.

I have not yet found any indication of a “traversing mechanism”. On the contrary, where you would expect to see it, you do not.

**note** The ability to “Adjust the Traverse” is not required to fire the gun. If the Handle Bar did “locked-down” the Traverse, you could have made adjustments by moving the rear of the carriage “just a little” to the left or right. (AKA: “The Hard Way”!)




The Krupp Carriage


I am unsure of how the Traverse & Elevation was adjusted on a Krupp carriage.

There is no evidence of the original Naval Traverse & Elevation adjustment mechanism.

On the contrary, the “elevation adjustment teeth” are removed when the barrel/recoil cradle is mounted on a Krupp carriage.

There appears to be a Hand-Wheel on the right side of the carriage, just forward of the axle.

There is a “T”-handle Crank on the front of the carriage. The crank-shaft goes through an “eyehole” in the Wheel-Lock/Brake Mechanism.

There are “Gears” under the carriage.

The “canister-shaped” object may be a “Bottle-Jack” type device used to adjust the Elevation.

This mechanism is visible in the photos of the destroyed gun at Massasi, the gun in London and the Bagamoyo photos.

The mechanism is missing from the Krupp carriage now on display at Fort Jesus.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

CPT Bob
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 06 May 2013 23:40

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by CPT Bob » 05 Sep 2013 16:53

More photos
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
danebrog
Member
Posts: 253
Joined: 17 Nov 2008 15:59

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 05 Sep 2013 21:42

Bob
Excellent detail work - as usual
for further examination of Krupp carriages have a glance at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1515536

These are the original carriages as delivered by Sperrbrecher "Marie" before modified for African warfare by Hans Apel
Unfortunately these carriages are rare as they are war time improvisations to enable naval guns firing at land warfare (similar to British experiments since the Boer wars)

CPT Bob
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 06 May 2013 23:40

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by CPT Bob » 08 Sep 2013 11:59

Barrel / Cradle / Recoil Mechanism / Flange


The “Barrel” and the “Cradle” were separate component parts that were connected via the “Damper” mechanism.

The "Flange" was an integral part of the "Cradle"; either the Cradle was manufactured with a Flange, as in Pretoria or Mombasa, or it was not, as in Jinja (or Sydney).

The Barrel recoiled; the Cradle did not.

The Cradle did move “Up & Down” via the Elevation Adjustment mechanism.

The “saddle-shaped” Access Panel on the top of the Cradle was for cleaning and maintenance. The Pretoria Gun still has one. It is missing from both the Jinja and Mombasa guns.

**note** The Barrel at Kahe was blown out of its Cradle. The pedestal-mount (with at least the left-hand side of the T&E mechanism still attached) is visible in the background. I have not located the Cradle.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1914
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 08 Sep 2013 16:57

Thanks for that Bob, nice and clear!

Cheers
Chris

CPT Bob
Member
Posts: 259
Joined: 06 May 2013 23:40

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by CPT Bob » 10 Sep 2013 18:11

One of my daughters served in the US Navy. She reminded me that the Navy does things the “Smart” way and the Army does things the “Hard” way. Ha!

The Navy adjusted the “Direction” by turning a little wheel.

The Army did it by setting the Firing Data on a Mechanical Sight placed on top of a Sight-Post and then turning the Entire Gun until the Sight lined up on a pre-positioned set of Aiming Stakes.

That type of Sight-Post was a common feature on German field-guns of various calibers during WW1.

(No “Hoist” needed!)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
jwsleser
Member
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Jun 2005 14:02
Location: Leavenworth, KS

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by jwsleser » 19 Dec 2013 18:09

This has been a very enjoyable thread to follow. Thanks!
One of my daughters served in the US Navy. She reminded me that the Navy does things the “Smart” way and the Army does things the “Hard” way. Ha!
The difference between direct and indirect firing. :D

The Army doesn't need to 'see' the target and haul around a large director/range finder to fire its guns :wink:

The army doesn't need no stinking hoist...
Turkish Hero Gallipoli.png
Corporal Seyit has in his arms a 275-kilogram shell for his gun battery :thumbsup:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
battaglione Alpini sciatori Monte Cervino (Reenacted)
5th Greek Regiment
9th reggimento bersaglieri

User avatar
danebrog
Member
Posts: 253
Joined: 17 Nov 2008 15:59

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 20 Dec 2013 11:24

Hi all
Chris, Bob and me made a lot of research during the last months. Next year we´ll post an extensive upgrade with some surprises and news
In the meantime: Happy X-mas and a Happy New Year

PZULBA
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 20 Jan 2014 01:58

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by PZULBA » 20 Jan 2014 02:16

Chris
Just found this Forum & THREAD - absolutely BRILLIANT

I was educated in EAfrica in '50's/'60's and remember the Mombasa Gun, have vague memories of the Jinja Gun (only visited KAR barracks twice - had g/friend whose father was probably last British CO of Uganda Army -met Amin who was then still a LT, but that's another story!!!)
Now a slight sidetrack/red herring - the Entebbe Gun mentioned by Capt Bob, I seem to remember being told that it was delivered to Entebbe during WWI to provide defence against possibility of German attack across Lake Victoria - could well have been a German weapon but doubt it would have been sent from the Western Front during WWI, more probably it would have been captured in E Africa
But remember these memories are from about 1958 (my Dad's first tour) or even 1964 (his second tour) this was when I visited Jinja

PZULBA - Out of Africa (Retired)

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1914
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 21 Jan 2014 22:01

Hello Pzulba!

:welcome: Welcome to the forum! Very glad you're enjoying this thread, remember we've still not got all the answers yet but we will get there!

I don't think the Entebbe gun came from East Africa. The artillery of German East Africa in 1914 is listed here- http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&t=107333

I also doubt it was brought from the Western Front during the war. It seems to be missing its breech block so wouldn't have been much use after its capture. I suspect that as Bob suggested it was a Western Front trophy.

Great that you got to see the Mombassa and Jinja guns back in the day! Anymore stories on them (Lt Amin!) would be interesting...

Cheers
Chris

User avatar
danebrog
Member
Posts: 253
Joined: 17 Nov 2008 15:59

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 07 Feb 2014 16:13

This is the actual research so far...

Most probably the Mahiwa gun is the actual Mombasa gun
The Tabora gun remains a mystery. Although we know 2 pictures from the Kologwe gun, the Belgians forged the pic for the Tabora one. Thanks to "Sherlock Bob" we know it was cropped from a picture who shows a german 4.7cm gun emplacement at the Rufiji

Same puzzling for the Jo-Burg gun. Although barrel, wheels and some smaller pieces are of clear german origin it seems the carriage has british origins.

Two Facts we know for sure:
There were NEVER two guns in Belgian Congo. The Kologwe gun first went to Boma, the former capital of BC. About 1923 it went to Stanleyville at the Place du canon. This is confirmed by many photographic evidence

There were 4 Krupp carriages in use, but only 3 DAR carriages. The Kondoa gun got the Goetzen barrel as replacement and became the Kologwe gun. As one carriage was used for two barrels, we have only 7 carriages altogether.

ACTUAL LOSS LIST
Image

IDENTIFIED DAR CARRIAGES
Image

Will post several details later...

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1914
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 11 Feb 2014 00:20

Great work Danebrog!

On the Goetzen photos, yes I believe they all show the same Goetzen/Korogwe/Stanleyville gun. Do you think some may be Kondoa- as you labelled the photo that way? Perhaps photo B? I think all the rest can positively be identified as Goetzen/Korogwe/Stanleyville.

korogwe.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1914
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 11 Feb 2014 00:23

On the Mkuyuni photos, yes I believe these are all the same gun.
mkuyuni.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1914
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 11 Feb 2014 00:26

kibata.jpg
On the Kibata photos, I did think they were the same gun as Mkuyuni (Dar carriage- no flange) but now I see this gun still has the antenna looking parts around the breech. (Bob, what are these? Someone once mentioned "sighting arcs"? I thought they were part of the turret attachment but now I see they are on flanged and non-flanged guns, so that can't be right) So these Kibata photos do look like a different gun from the Mkuyuni one. Do we have any positive proof or original captions linking these photos to Kibata?
In the first photo I cannot make out the "antenna" for certain. Could that maybe be Mkuyuni?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “German Colonies and Overseas Expeditions”