Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#121

Post by Chris Dale » 11 Feb 2014, 01:42

Great work on the list too. I think you've got it mostly as accurate as we can with the information we have. I would to change or clarify some points.

1. I think Mahiwa is confirmed as blown breech from Sgt Southern's photo of it lying on logs and Wenig's description of the blast.
Image

2. Are we certain that Kahe had a flange? Remember the "crack of light" photo in its Tanga turret?
1kahe on platform.jpg
3. I would say that Kigoma/Tabora had a flange. I think it can be seen in photos of the Elephant Foot Emplacement.
kberg2.jpg
kberg2.jpg (32.5 KiB) Viewed 845 times
Certainly there is no crack of light...
kberg2close.jpg
kberg2close.jpg (19.14 KiB) Viewed 845 times
Thanks for getting this thread running again!
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Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#122

Post by Chris Dale » 11 Feb 2014, 03:57

Still the big question remains... which guns are at Mombasa and Pretoria?

Both are mostly intact barrels (missing breech block), with flange, and having Krupp wheels (Mombasa has Krupp carriage, Pretoria has hybrid carriage of uncertain origin but with Krupp wheels).

1 Kahe- Impossible (gun was split breech, no carriage, seen in 1930s in Dar)
2 Kondoa- Unlikely (barrel was buried, we think it had Dar carriage)
3 Mwanza- Impossible (gun had no flange, no carriage and is in Jinja)
4 Bagamoyo- Impossible (gun was seen in UK 1930s)
5 Mkuyuni- Impossible (gun had no flange and Dar carriage)
6 Korogwe- Impossible (gun had Dar carriage and was seen in Stanleyville until 1970s)
7 Tabora- Unlikely (it may have had Krupp carriage and flange but was reported as destroyed and captured by Belgians not British or South Africans)
8 Kibata- Impossible (it had no flange and a Dar carriage)
9 Mahiwa- Unlikely (we have Sgt Southern's photo and Wenig's description of breech damage. Though Wenig described general demolition he was not specific as the the carriage. The Krupp carriage and wheels may have been used for Mombasa or Pretoria)
10 Massasi- Impossible (The barrel's muzzle has been seen split wide open. The right wheel looks intact, and possibly the left. The carriage is similar to Bagamoyo but not identical as missing elevation unit. The Krupp wheels may have been used).

The clues don't look good. We have a mixture of "Unlikely" and "Impossible". Was the Kondoa gun not so badly damaged and dug up again by the British? Was the Tabora gun taken by British units to Dar Es Salaam despite the fact that Tabora was captured by Belgian troops? Can anyone think of any clues I may have missed?

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Chris


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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#123

Post by danebrog » 12 Feb 2014, 17:19

Hi Chris

some "clues"

A - Kondoa gun: I believe picture B may show the Kondoa/Kologwe gun as is has the unique flange

B - Kibata gun: Top picture shows Hans Apel, who was gun leader for this cannon at the end of the campaign. the others show obviously the same gun from different angles. The one in the middle was labeled as Kibata at the SA military museum...
Hint: Have a closer look for the smaller wheels at the limber

C - Kahe gun: I strongly believe the gun had a flange, as it was first mounted on a shielded emplacement. The germans of this era were far too accurate to mix up guns and emplacements, when all specimens were complete ;-)

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#124

Post by Chris Dale » 12 Feb 2014, 18:55

I'm sure you're rght about German eficiency and the Kahe gun, just don't have any 100% proof yet. Thanks to on the Kibata identification.

Here's another interesting photo showing the remains of the gun emplacement at Kigoma. The interesting thing here is that the gun bucket is still in place proving what we already knew that the gun from Kigoma went to Tabora on a Krupp carriage, as the Krupp carriage did not use the gun bucket whereas the Dar carriages did...
Kigoma gun remains2.jpg
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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#125

Post by danebrog » 14 Feb 2014, 10:54

just don't have any 100% proof yet.
No, but the gun was shielded, hence I strongly assume a flange

For the Jo-Burg one:
Ever thought about the possibility the Belgians sent the remains of the Tabora gun via Zentralbahn to the South Africans...

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#126

Post by Chris Dale » 14 Feb 2014, 13:29

danebrog wrote: For the Jo-Burg one:
Ever thought about the possibility the Belgians sent the remains of the Tabora gun via Zentralbahn to the South Africans...
Yes, the Tabora gun could be at Pretoria or Mombasa....

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#127

Post by Kallag » 15 Feb 2014, 13:56

Is it possible that the Pretoria gun (and for that matter the Mombasa gun), could be made up of components collected after the war and put together to form a reasonably complete diplay article.

On the WW1 Forum I have previously indicated the following :

" The Königsberg gun on display outside the Union Buildings in South Africa (Pretoria) is numbered Nr.369L at the rear of the breech. This 'makers mark' is however different on the right hand recuperator/buffer cylinder, the number being 367R. The left hand cylinder is numbered 369L with a top nut just in front of the breech also numbered 369(without the L).
In addition to the 367 and 369 numbers mentioned, the top of the breech reflects two further numbers, K8732 and Nr. 1052.
A Königsberg sight arc on display at the South African National Museum of Military History in Johannesburg reflects the number 368L."


Indications therefore are that the Pretoria gun (No 369) also received parts from gun no 367. The sight arc for gun no 368 ended up in the Military History Museum in Johannesburg.

What will be damn nice to know is what the numbers reflected on the Mombasa gun (and Jinja Gun) are. Is there a perfect match between the barrel numbering and recuperator/buffer cylinder numbering or are these guns also made up of parts from more than one gun??


post-25609-053726900 1293546321.jpg
Konigsberg gun in Pretoria
post-25609-080218800%201293546397.jpg
Numbering on barrel
post-25609-080218800%201293546397.jpg (10.44 KiB) Viewed 789 times
Attachments
post-25609-057314400%201293546943.jpg
Sight Arc Johannesburg Museum
post-25609-084732200%201293546419.jpg
Right recuperator/buffer cylinder
post-25609-046168700%201293546451.jpg
Left recuperator/buffer cylinder

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#128

Post by Kallag » 15 Feb 2014, 14:17

Oh, and Chris, your picture posted earlier appears to be of high quality......zooming in on the barrel may well reveal the barrel number.
Mkuyuni2.jpg
Barrel Number??
Mkuyuni2.jpg (123.45 KiB) Viewed 789 times

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#129

Post by danebrog » 16 Feb 2014, 15:05

Well spotted, kallag!
The differing recuperator number may be a hint the Jo-Burg specimen was in fact "Frankensteined" from different guns!

We can assume for sure the SMS Koenigsberg received a batch of guns with consecutively numbered guns. Some years ago I made some research at the Bundesarchiv who has some plans and documents for SMS Koenigsberg in store. Unfortunately the armament isn´t mentioned, as it was the responsibility of the Imperial Navy for outfitting the ships with guns, radio equipment a.s.o.

As we talk about numbers: Someone knows the number for the Mombasa gun??

This one is most probably the former Mahiwa gun from Leutnant zur See Richard Wenig and also shown at the pictures from Sgt. Southern. (The Massassi gun is out of the question, as we know by evidence this gun was damaged beyond repair). Although Wenig described how his gun was blown to pieces this could be accounted to some "artistic freedom"...

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#130

Post by Chris Dale » 19 Feb 2014, 12:36

Kallag, we had suspected Pretoria was "Frankensteined" but you've proven it! Thank you...

The question is now if it was Frankensteined by the Germans during the war (for example if parts from the Kondoa gun were later re-used)... or by the British and South Africans after the war for display?

I'll try zooming in on every photo I have seen to see if any more serial numbers are visible...

I suspect the sight arc is from Kibata... only a guess so far...

True, Mombasa could be Wenig's Mahiwa gun... or a Frankenstein of Mahiwa and Masassi? There's still mysteries to tie up here but we're getting there slowly...

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Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#131

Post by Chris Dale » 20 Feb 2014, 23:24

I tried zooming in on all the period photos I have of the guns and couldn't read any serial numbers or even get close to them. Sorry.

One thought, seeing the recoil pistons marking with L and R it seemed they were marked for left and right (Links und Rechts) but why is the barrel marked L? Did they mark the barrels for which side of the ship they were on? If so this gun was one of the ones that fired on the Pegasus- Port (left) side only fired at Zanzibar...

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Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#132

Post by danebrog » 21 Feb 2014, 14:34

Origin of some wheels for carriages and limbers (open Picture for full view with locomobile)
Image

small differences at DAR carriages and limbers
Image

Not entirely topic, but interesting anyway:
The earliest picture of a KBG gun I have in store, obviously pre-war
Image

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#133

Post by Chris Dale » 21 Feb 2014, 17:29

Great photos, thanks for posting them!

Now where does this leave this gun? It looks to have rivets in the front, although they don't look quite the same as the Korogwe rivets. Difficult to tell for sure from this photo... what do you guys think?
logwheels.jpg
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Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#134

Post by Chris Dale » 23 Feb 2014, 01:31

Hello folks,

More questions going through my mind...

1. Gustav Zimmer was the commander of the of the German naval forces on Lake Tanganyika. Is he the same Korvettenkapitän Zimmer that commanded the coal ship Somali that re-fuelled the SMS Konigsberg at sea? If so was he from the Königsberg crew or from the Möwe or another ship? Does anyone have any more biographical material on him or have any photos?

2. Holger's notes have guns 6 & 7 both commanded by Leutnant z.S. Reinhold Kohtz. Is this correct? Surely he did not command two guns, one at sea one on land?

3. So far we know that of the original deployments, two with turrets (and flanges) went to Tanga and two to Kigoma/Goetzen. One without a turret or flange went to Mwanza. As there were six with turrets on the ship and four without that leaves two with turrets and three without at Dar. We know that those in Dar were divided into two batteries. Batterie Müllerschamba next to the railway station had three guns and Batterie Kurasini across the Seresan Creek above the harbour had two guns. Did the very organised Germans deploy them as mixed batteries with and without turrets or more likely did they put those without turrets in one (therefore the three in Batterie Müllerschamba) and those with turrets in the other (therefore Batterie Kurasini overlooking the harbour)?

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Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

#135

Post by Chris Dale » 24 Feb 2014, 01:06

I've also updated my website with a few good Königsberg gun photos here too-
http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/ger ... erggun.htm

Cheers
Chris

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