Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

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CPT Bob
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by CPT Bob » 07 Jul 2016 19:50

I also saw that; a bit more "Artistic Liberty". It appears as if the blue "Crackerjack" uniform is very popular, as well.

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Tanzania
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 30 Jul 2016 04:45

A Koenigsberg gun or `only´ a Feldkanone C 73 (8,8-cm / 7,85-cm) ?

The translated title of this photo mentioned: “Gun barrel behind fortification” This is an extraordinarily
large diameter for a Schutztruppen cannon. This photo was also taken by Walther Dobbertin, before
he was imprisoned in 1916. It can therefore be the case that a `Koenigsberg-gun-barrel´ is pictured.
(Unfortunately the photos couldn´t be saved readily in a bigger size.)

Image

Orininal Source: http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/archive ... [page]=167
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 30 Jul 2016 07:14

Maybe the old 150mm naval gun or the ancient mortar from DeS??

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 30 Jul 2016 09:09

I expected also it was the `Schnelle Grete´; 15-cm-Ringkanone / 150mm navel gun.

Image

http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/archive ... 05-DOA6072
The original is with: 6706x4183 Pixel. (Wow; - with this pixel-size you should be able to count the whiskers.)




I never searched befor in the Bundesarchiv, because I thought I know all the photos there, but it´s really worth to have a look.
http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/archive ... REDATE+ASC




Here you see a `Koenigsberg-Navy-Elephant´ from 1915 in GEA!?! Was this a German, or a captured British Elephant?
Maybe an unknown member of detachment `Delta´? This would have be the correct draft animal for the Koenigsberg guns.

Really strange; an elephant which should have been in GEA during the war, stocked in the institute for Physical Oceanography.

Image
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 30 Jul 2016 17:47

I doubt the elephant photo... firstly the officers in the bacground seem to be wearing field grey. Secondly the small ears and skull shape of the elephant seem to show it is an Asian elephant, possibly from a circus or zoo. The field looks ploughed. I can't be sure but I think this photo was taken in Germany...
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 07 Aug 2016 19:17

.

Here you see the before mentioned short film clip with two protective shields from the Koenigsberg-guns.

Image

Source: The endless story of the Liemba, 8:45 – 8:57/ 42:55 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unW5sV5_mPM

Question to the attentive eyes of the spectators: » How many local porters pull the wagon? « ( – Image – )
.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 08 Aug 2016 16:48

off-topic, but interesting: Christiansen wrote in his Book: "Durch" Mit Kriegsmaterial zu Lettow-Vorbeck, the 15-cm Ringkanone came from Kreuzerfregatte Bismarck

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 08 Aug 2016 17:35

.
off-topic, but interesting: Christiansen wrote in his Book: "Durch" Mit Kriegsmaterial zu Lettow-Vorbeck, the 15-cm Ringkanone came from Kreuzerfregatte Bismarck
Interesting; It would be also interesting to hear, why the Kreuzerfregatte Bismarck left behind this gun in German East Africa!?!


Warfare structure of the Schutztruppe on 5th March 1916:
H. Commander Daressalam
(Light) Artillery detachment Vizewachtmeister d.R. Beusse ( 1 x C 73, 1 x 6 cm, 1 x 3,7, Rev. 1 x 3,7)
Costal Artillery Kptlt. Apel (1 x 15cm, 5 x 10,5, 1 x 8,8)
Source: “The Operations in East-Africa, World War 1914-1918”, Ludwig Boell, Page 144-146, Hamburg 1951


This should be also not the 15-cm-Ringkanone (?), even though the calibre this fits.
New exhibition piece in front of the National Museum in Daressalam, August 2013.

Image

.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by CPT Bob » 09 Aug 2016 16:45

Hmmmmmmm........These gentlemen appear to have something "suspicious".
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 11 Aug 2016 21:20

.

Do we know if this 15-cm-Ring (or Mantel) Kanone was a Front- or back charger?

Original discussed already seven years before, but has not be answered sufficiently:

Von welchem S. M. S. stammt 15-cm-Marine-Kanone in DOA?
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php?topic=9919.0
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“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 29 Nov 2016 11:25

What makes you think that this gun-

Image

...is not the same gun as this one-

Image

The shape of the barrel and muzzle look the same, it may be the same gun just upside down and missing a section around the breech?

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 30 Nov 2016 07:15

.

Seem to be the SMS Bismarck was equipped with 15-cm-Breech-loading weapons.
03.jpg

But the Museums-gun showed a muzzle-loader.
02.JPG

Cheers Holger
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palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 03 Dec 2016 20:17

Thanks for solving that mystery. In the meantime to show you I haven't been entirely lazy recently on the subject of the SMS Koenigsberg guns...

I built an OO gauge 10.5cm East African WW1 railway gun for my kid's layout.



Hope you enjoy it too!

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Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 21 Jan 2017 01:54

Looking at our timescale we're always said that the gun destroyed at Masasi was the last of the ten guns to be destroyed. That Wenig's gun was blown up at Mahiwa on Oct 27 1917 and the former Tanga gun at Masasi on Oct 28 1917. This is based on Ludwig Boell, "Die Operationen in Ostafrika im Weltkrieg 1914-1918".

Several other sources indicate that Wenig's gun was the last to be destroyed. Wenig says this himself, though he may be biased here. Mueller says it too. "Mit Lettow-Vorbeck durch Afrika" by Dr. Ludwig Deppe, says the Masasi gun was destroyed in the middle of October.

What are your thoughts?
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Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 22 Jan 2017 11:31

.

Due to your statement I reviewed again my available sources to identify the time differences between the
Loss date of the `9. Mahiwa-Gun´ and the `10. Massassi-Gun´.

General, time differences between the loss by the German- and the finding through British troops are normal.
Due to this, only the German sources gave more detailed indications.


Currently we assume:
27th October 1917, loss of the 9th Koenigsberg Gun at Mahiwa
28th October 1917, loss of the 10th Koenigsberg Gun at Massassi



As far as it was comprehensibly, the following persons gave indications about both guns:

Hermann Mueller mentioned, already in captivity, the sighting of a blasted and again excavated gun barrel, but
no definitive date. Furthermore, which of the two is meant by this; - Mahiwa-Gun or Massassi-Gun is not clear.

Hans Appel summarized in his records, exactly like Paul v. Lettow-Vorbeck and Karl Ernst Göring, only that
`both guns were destroyed (more or less) together´, after the Battle of Mahiwa. Likewise without an exact date.

Yes; - Richard Wenig wrote, that `his gun´ (9. Mahiwa-Gun) was destroyed as the last of all ten Koenigsberg-Guns,
when he fired the last nine shells, on the last day of the Battle around Mahiwa. But also with a date!
(“. . . Hier steht zwischen schlanken Bäumen, das heiße Rohr emporgereckt, mit darüber gebundenem
Laub unsichtbar gemacht, das letzte der zehn Geschütze der ,,Königsberg´´ in heißem Kampf. Alle
anderen sind vernichtet, gesprengt, in Feindeshand! Es verschießt seine letzte Munition – am
letzten Tag der Schlacht von Mahiwa – dem letzten großen Kampfe in der letzten deutschen Kolonie!)




Both guns were still in function before the Battle of Mahiwa started (15th- 18th October 1917).
Between 8th and 14th October 1917 the situation of the East-troops of the `Schutztruppe were as followed:

The Mahiwa-Gun stand under Richard Wenig within the Detachment Wahle around Nengedi / Mkoma and the
Massassi-Gun under Kurt Frankenberg within the Detachment Kraut around Bangala. The reason that not both
guns were in action are the transport problem and the less ammunition (only 150 shells for both guns at that time).


Image



A view on the photo below, makes clear how big are the handicap between Massassi and Mahiwa
in the near of the Makonde plateau with a two tons Koenigsberg-gun, carried by 800 – 1000 carriers.

Image



Ludwig Boell was the only source who gave in a summarized background and a complete `story line´ with dates for both guns.


That’s currently all what is known to me. But maybe the future will bring other and further news.
Cheers Holger
.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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