Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Discussions on all aspects of the German Colonies and Overseas Expeditions. Hosted by Chris Dale.
User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1939
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 23 Jan 2017 22:17

Thanks for that very full answer, Holger. Beautiful scenary too, though I wouldn't like to drag a gun around it...
Cheers
Chris

User avatar
Tanzania
Member
Posts: 786
Joined: 04 Jun 2009 13:59
Location: Tanzania

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 24 Jan 2017 12:55

.

I `inspected´ just before `our´ Koenigsberg-Gun in Mombasa / Kenya, to be sure that still, `only one´ (- :wink: -) is standing there.

Image

Cheers Holger
.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1939
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 24 Jan 2017 13:07

You're there right now???? Amazing, of course you'll let us know if you see any more clues or serial numbers?

User avatar
Tanzania
Member
Posts: 786
Joined: 04 Jun 2009 13:59
Location: Tanzania

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 24 Jan 2017 13:29

Chris!?

As far as I can remember we have had this theme?!? Where is Bob?
If he would come with a bucket of paint remover, I will keep a lookout during the night. (- :thumbsup: -)

Let me see if it´s possible to `clean the area tomorrow with the scouring sponge´.

Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1939
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 24 Jan 2017 14:54

Yes but I didn't realise you were there now... I'm sure you're searching for clues in all the right places!
Cheers
Chris

Kallag
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: 02 May 2013 20:00

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Kallag » 18 Feb 2017 17:07

Simonstown Museum displays a shell on a stand which once included one of the Konigsberg 4.1inch shell casings.

The casing was stolen from the Museum in 2012. The plaque fixed to the stand reads " KONIGSBERG SHELL captured with 4.1 Gun at Bagamoyo 15th Aug 1916"

Removal of the grey colored alloy 'nut' at the top of the shell reveals an inner brass 'sleeve' which is marked with the kaiserliche marine crown capped M and some numbers. There is a copper 'driving band' near the base of the shell.

None of the photographs in this thread clearly show a Konigsberg shell. It is not possible therefore to compare the museum piece to another example. Would it be safe to assume that the museum shell is indeed the real McCoy?? What say you?

Kallag
IMG_3295,1,e.jpg
IMG_3295,1,1,e.jpg
IMG_3299,e.jpg
IMG_3296,e.jpg
IMG_3296,1,e.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1939
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 18 Feb 2017 22:28

Looks very plausible to me and we know that shells were captured at Bagamoyo but that word "assume" has proven to be a dangerous one in the past...
Cheers
Chris

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1939
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 01 May 2017 00:15

I came across British telegrams relating to the SMS Königsberg (ADM 137/10/10 ) on the UK National Archives website.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... /C10763631

The first one shows Admiral King-Hall thought Ingles' actions were "inexplicable"...

Folio 336: telegram from Commander-in-Chief, Cape to Admiralty 20th September 1914, HMS Pegasus sunk in harbour 2pm. HMS Pegasus appears to have been surprised by Konigsberg [German light cruiser] in an unprepared state and unable to move which I think in the absence of further particulars is inexplicable in view of my orders to Captain. I have directed Commander [J A] Ingles report fully by telegram to me and Admiralty. Commander Ingles reports about 40 killed including Lt Cdrs Turner and Drake, about 60 wounded including Staff Paymaster Seath, Gunner Goss and Carpenter Adams. Am endeavouring to secure suitable ship for hospital ship to bring wounded to Cape of Good Hope where they will have better chance of recovery. From same to same 20th September 1914, have requisitioned [SS] Gascon [Union Castle Line] as hospital ship.

Folios 339-340: telegram from Captain, HMS Pegasus Zanzibar to Admiralty 20th September 1914, Gascon with stores and ratings being expected decided to remain Zanzibar for 2 days, suspect Konigsberg [German light cruiser] ascertained our correct position during night, approached Effbe lighthouse full speed 5am, disabled patrol launch with 3 shots then opened fire on HMS Pegasus; had range correct with second salvo before we could open fire. Her shooting very accurate; she opened at 9 and closed at 7, all our engagement broadside guns disabled after 15 minutes and fire ceased from us. Nearly all our casualties occurred round the guns and on the upper deck. Ship badly holed on the water line, she eventually sank. Removed 2 3-pdrs and 2 maxims. All survivors camped inland; very few rifles obtained; defences generally poor through lack of guns. Impossible to save 4guns.

Folios 344-345: telegram from the Governor of the East Africa Protectorate to the Secretary of State for the Colonies 21st September 1914, breakdown of Volunteer Forces with names of commanding officers.

Folio 346: telegram from HMS Dartmouth, Manora to Admiralty 21st September 1914, HMS Dartmouth and [RIM] Hardinge sailed with convoy for rendevous.

Folio 347: telegram from Admiralty to A.S. [Admiral Superintendent] Malta 21st September 1914, HMS Minerva to relieve HMS Weymouth on escort duty to Marseilles. HMS Weymouth to escort HMS Minerva's transports to Egypt and at once proceed via Suez Canal to join HMS Dartmouth and HMS Chatham in hunt for Konigsberg [German light cruiser].

Folio 349: telegram from Commander-in-Chief, Simonstown to Admiralty 21st September 1914, suggest that HMS Hyacinth should come direct to Cape from St Helena; that HMS Astraea and Armadale Castle should remain with Imperial troops until Union Expedition is safely landed, HMS Astraea then proceeding to St Vincent Island (Cape Verde) with Imperial troops and Armadale Castle; I should proceed in HMS Hyacinth with Kinfauns Castle to East Coast and search for Konigsberg in co-operation with HMS Chatha, which has been ordered from Aden to Mombasa.

Folio 350: telegram from Admiralty to Resident, Zanzibar 21st September 1914, HMS Chatham from Red Sea has been ordered to Zanzibar to search for Konigsberg en route. HMS Dartmouth and HMS Fox escorting troops to Mombasa. Then HMS Chatham and HMS Dartmouth will hunt Konigsberg. HMS Weymouth from Mediterranean ordered to assist.

Folio 351: telegram from Admiralty to Commander-in-Chief East Indies, Bombay 21st September 1914 - HMS Weymouth from Mediterranean placed under your orders to assist HMS Chatham and HMS Dartmouth in searching for Konigsberg [German light cruiser].

Folio 353: telegram from HMS Chatham Aden to Admiralty 21st September 1914, HMS Chatham left for Mombasa. Expect to arrive Saturday 26th morning.

Folio 355: telegram from the Governor of the East Africa Protectorate to the Secretary of State for the Colonies 22nd September 1914 relating to the engagement at the Tsavo River, casualties were: killed Lieutenant Foster, King's African Rifles, 5 K.A.R. rank and file, one Somali scout, seven mules. Wounded 3 K.A.R. rank and file, 2 Somali scouts. Isaacson in charge of Somali scouts took over command on death of Foster.

Folio 357: telegram from Viceroy to India Office 22nd September 1914, it is hoped that whole Force B will be despatched on 8th or 9th October. Disposition of units making up Force B.

Folio 358: telegram from the Minister For Foreign Affairs, Paris to French Ambassador 22nd September 1914, the presence on the East Coast of Africa of the German cruiser Konigsberg constitutes a serious danger for the French Mail Steamer Melbourne which left Diego Suarez for France on the 18th September with officers and war material. This ship being now at the Seychelles I should be glad if you would ask the British Government to warn her.

Folio 362: telegram from Resident Zanzibar to Admiralty 22nd September 1914, Konigsberg [German light cruiser] is between Mombasa and Zanzibar.

Folio 366: Coal on East African Coast.

Folio 367b: telegram from Commander-in-Chief, Cape to Admiralty 15th September 1914, Union Government have asked me to arrange safe conveyance to Durban from Mombasa of cargo of ammunition. HMS Pegasus requires some stores. I propose to send a gun to Seychelles if they can man it. Propose to do these three services with Kinfauns Castle. History Section Precis.

Folio 367c: telegram from Admiralty to Commander-in-Chief, Cape 16th September 1914, Kinfauns Castle should not go alone; she should be worked with HMS Astraea and HMS Hyacinth.

Folio 367d: telegram from Commander-in-Chief, Simonstown to Admiralty 22nd September 1914, Union Government accepts offer of 2 batteries and propose sending 2 6inch guns on railway wagons in addition for use against fortified places. It is desired that 500 rounds of ammunition per gun be provided, propose mounting guns Zanzibar, Mombasa, Seychelles first opportunity.

Folio 367f: 1st L [First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill] 25th September 1914: all proposals for mounting guns or allocating gunners to Zanzibar, Mombasa and Seychelles should be submitted before any action is taken. Asst.Secy [Assistant Secretary] 26th September 1914: it appears the question originated with Commander-in-Chief, Cape and has not been considered by Admiralty. Is this so? And will War Staff raise the question for decision?

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1939
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 11 Jun 2017 16:10

An eagle eyed reader just pointed out a point of interest to me. The shell casing in the IWM has the name Pugu engraved on it. Pugu is SW of Dar. At a guess then I'd say this was a round fired by either Apel or Wenig's gun in Aug 1916 during their retreat from Dar?

Image
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30023699

Any thoughts gentlemen?

Cheers
Chris

User avatar
Tanzania
Member
Posts: 786
Joined: 04 Jun 2009 13:59
Location: Tanzania

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 15 Jun 2017 08:14

Hi Chris,

Where you read Pugu? As far as I know from the original description it was explained:

Physical description, cartridge German 10.5cm cartridge case taken from the wreck of SMS Konisberg by Lieutenant G Cooke

Source: IWM http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30023699

Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1939
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 19 Jun 2017 21:02

I read "Pugu East Afgrica" in Italic script above the bold text "FROM GERMAN CRUISER KONIGSBERG SUNK IN RUFIJI RIVER DELTA 11th JULY 1915".

It is difficult to be sure of the writing but I think IWM assumed the shell case was taken from the wreck because the engraving says the Kberg sunk there. The inscription does not say the shell case was found there. I think it says the shell case was found at Pugu...

I have also just been sent photos of another shell marked Pugu. This one is a bit more clear-
pugu.jpg
I'm awaiting more photos of this casing but I'm informed it measures 10.5cm x 65cm...

Cheers
Chris
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Chris Dale
Host - German Colonies
Posts: 1939
Joined: 21 Apr 2004 14:48
Location: UK

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 21 Jun 2017 22:08

What do you think of the measured casing?
DSC00440.JPG
DSC00443.JPG
Cheers
Chris
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Tanzania
Member
Posts: 786
Joined: 04 Jun 2009 13:59
Location: Tanzania

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 27 Jun 2017 08:31

An eagle eyed reader just pointed out a point of interest to me. The shell casing in the IWM has the name Pugu
engraved on it. Pugu is SW of Dar. At a guess then I'd say this was a round fired by either Apel or Wenig's gun in
Aug 1916 during their retreat from Dar?

Thanks for the explanation. I was not aware of this description. You are right, Pugu was the second Station of the Central Railway,
behind Daressalam. The date, August 1916 is also coherent with the events at that time. Almost every gun transported to or from
the west past Pugu Station. However, I do not know of any combat operations in which a Koenigsberg gun was involved at Pugu.

As far as I know, Apel's and Wenig's KB-Guns were transported directly from Daressalam via the bridge, east of the town centre to
Kurasini and Nikindo via the coastal road to Kissidju or further inland via Mkomba to the south. Both Guns left Dar on the 26.8.1916.
Perhaps an ammunition train was captured at Pugu two days later by the British, or a German ammunition column lost something.


Image

Original source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanganjikabahn

Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

User avatar
Tanzania
Member
Posts: 786
Joined: 04 Jun 2009 13:59
Location: Tanzania

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 27 Jun 2017 12:50

I'm awaiting more photos of this casing but I'm informed it measures 10.5cm x 65cm...
What do you think of the measured casing?
The measurements agree with the 10,5-cm-Cartridges which we found last week at Itaga, north of Tabora.
(Of course, not as beautifully glossy as yours – :wink: –)


10,5-cm-SK Cartridge of »The Elephant's Foot Gun – Kigoma to Tabora« (respectively Lt. Kohtz third KB-Gun)
Above: 10,5-cm-S.K. Cartridge (Schnell-Lade Kanone / 4,1" in Quick Firing Gun) L/40 Krupp
Below: 10,5-cm-L.F. Cartridge (Leichte Feld-Haubitze / 4,1" Light Field Howitzer) L/16, M. 1898/08, Krupp

Image
Source: Own Photo in June 2017
Last edited by Tanzania on 27 Jun 2017 13:23, edited 2 times in total.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

User avatar
Tanzania
Member
Posts: 786
Joined: 04 Jun 2009 13:59
Location: Tanzania

Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 27 Jun 2017 12:58

Brief summary of background and location

On 13./ 14. September 1916, twelve kilometres North-northwest of Tabora the decisive `Battle of Itaga´ took place between
the West troops of the German Schutztruppe and the Belgian North-, and South Brigade. One of the reasons for the defensive-
success of the Germans against the, four-to-one superior attacking Belgian troops was the short-term artillery superiority at
this point. In this case one 10.5-cm Koenigsberg gun and a 10.5-cm light field howitzer of the same calibre were used at Itaga.


The Belgian Map of the official Belgian book shows the best and most telling details of the `Battle of Itaga´.
Les Campagnes Coloniales Belges 1914-1918 – Tome II – La Campagne de Tabora (1916) – 4.6. - Combat d´Itaga
Image
Original source: http://sammlungen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/k ... ew/7789608



The Itaga-Berg with view from the Masagola-, or Mawagali-Berg in the East.
Image
Source: Own Photo in June 2017



The Masagola-, or Mawagali-Berg with view from the valley-floor in the West.
Image
Source: Own Photo in June 2017



The Muguluku- or Ngeruka-Berg with view from the Masagola-, or Mawagali-Berg in the North-East.
Image
Source: Own Photo in June 2017
Last edited by Tanzania on 27 Jun 2017 13:25, edited 1 time in total.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

Return to “German Colonies and Overseas Expeditions”