Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 19 Apr 2021 06:17

arche-foto wrote:
18 Apr 2021 15:53
Hello,
I have several original photos of some pictures shown here. The labeling on the backs might be helpful.
first: Kigoma
15-cm-geschuetz.jpg kigoma_werkstatt_geschuetz_b.jpg

My picture is very high quality, very good exposed, also inside full of details. The scale is real, maybe a circle 360.
Guten Morgen Burkhard
You posted a lot of photos. Thanks for this. Some are known, but yours are, of course in a better Quality.
Let start with the first: 15 cm-gun and 15-cm-geschuetz.jpg. Here some German explenation for this old 15-cm L/22 R.K.

Engagement of the 15-cm-Ringkanone.jpg

In my opinion it would make less scence to rebuild this gun in Kigoma, if the position have been in Daressalam.
I think the description `Kigoma´is not correct.
Cheers Holger
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by arche-foto » 19 Apr 2021 06:29

Thanks, I know the backround for this 15-cm-gun. I think also, "Kigoma" is unreal.

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 19 Apr 2021 06:36

Regarding the second photo in post # 718 koenigsberg-geschuetz_009_013.
and the explanation on the back: `Daressalam, Geschütz v.d. Rg. 1915 Königsberg “´
viewtopic.php?p=2338265#p2338265

The photo shows without a doubt a permanently installed Königsberg gun. Here in this thread it was
already mentioned that the photo was installed in Kigoma or Dar es Salaam. Both seem possible.
(I come back with other comments, later)

Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 20 Apr 2021 08:06

Regarding post #719 viewtopic.php?p=2338266#p2338266

For me it seems to be, that your two pictures are enlargements from this original photo.

56_8,8-cm S.K. L30 on M.P.L. C89 on stern of Goetzen.jpg
10,5-cm SK, 8,8-cm SK + 3,7-cm RK.png

Very nice photo(s); - congratulation; - thanks for posting.

But I don´t understand your comment:
“The picture with the 2 8,8 guns on the Lake Tanganyika (page 21) is dated: October 18, 1914”

Cheers Holger
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 21 Apr 2021 22:20

It wasn´t two 8.8cm guns but one 8.8 and one 3.7cm gun
Goetzen.jpg
https://sklep.gpm.pl/de/kartonmodellbau ... tzen-1/250
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 22 Apr 2021 05:52

Tanzania wrote:
20 Apr 2021 08:06
“The picture with the 2 8,8 guns on the Lake Tanganyika (page 21) is dated: October 18, 1914”
Hi Oliver,
but at the above mentioned date, in October 1914, the Goetzen wasn´t in service, and both 8,8-cm L/30 are on a wooden raft?!?
Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 22 Apr 2021 12:41

Das anybody know this Photo in a better quality?
Seem to be from the same photo-series like the enlagements from arche-foto before.
I can remember this was posted 10 years ago in the https://www.chakoten.dk/

10,5-cm L40_Korogwe-Gun .jpg
Cheers Holger
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 10 Feb 2022 17:42

Portuguese 10.5-cm Krupp L/35 gun, opposing a 10.5-cm L/40 Koenigsberg gun?

Since I am currently concentrating, due to Corona, more on the southern part of GEA (Tanzania) and the north of
PEA (Mozambique), I came across on an interesting photo; - some backgrounds and detailed operations in autumn
1916 on the border river Rovuma.

PART I – TECHNICAL BACKGROUND AND DETAILS
This first photo_01 undoubtedly shows a 10.5 cm L/35 Krupp gun on a center-pivot-mount (Mittel-Pivot-Lafette),
i.e. a lower-naval-mount and not a wheel-carriage for land use. Also interesting is the protective-shield, which was
certainly added later and provisionally. Also new for me; - the truncated cone-shaped base, as we know it from the
on-board gun carriages of the "Koenigsberg"; - but without these vertical long holes (see photo_03). However,
gun tubes and the upper-carriage on the "Koenigsberg" were already the successor type and were designated as
10.5 cm S.K. L/40. This naval-carriage which is shown, was not intended for field-guns as standard, but only for
permanent installation on ships or possibly on fortifications. I could not determine whether this 10.5 cm L/35 gun
came from the fortress `Fortaleza de Nossa Senhora da Conceiçao´ in Lourenço Marques (Maputo). On the other
hand, the small unprotected Portuguese cruiser NRP "Adamastor", which was used on the coast off PEA and the
estuary of the Rovuma, was equipped with four of such 10.5-cm L/35 guns; - for me, currently the only explanation
for the existence of this gun. This would be the third example, alongside HMS “Pegasus” and SMS “Koenigsberg”,
that 10.5-cm naval guns being used for bush-warfare during the East African campaign.
Portuguese unprotected Cruiser “Adamastor“: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRP_Adamastor
Fortress Lourenço Marques: https://www.viajecomigo.com/2017/02/16/ ... ocambique/

It also does not seem likely that the gun could be fired from this center-pivot-mount without being bolted to a solid
base such as a wooden or concrete foundation. We remember; - The first 10.5-cm L/40 Koenigsberg gun was lost
on March 21th, 1916 at Kahe on the north railway. The gun commander Korv.-Kapt. a.D. Werner Schoenfeld and
gunner Sgt. d.R. d.L.II. Hermann Müller describes in their records that the center-pivot-mount had been screwed
onto a massive double layer of wooden planks with 4.00 x 4.00 meters before the gun could be fired.

01_Portuguese 10.5-cm S.K. Krupp L/35 gun on M.P.L.
01_Portuguese 10.5-cm Krupp L-35 gun on M.P.L. .jpg
Original Source: https://www.operacional.pt/wp-content/u ... 7/0198.jpg


Several German text sources mentioned that the Portuguese built a wide bush-road after the start of the war, which
was later also used for trucks. This was even called as road at the time and ran parallel to the Rovuma River from
Palma on the coast to Negomano at the mouth of the Lugenda River. The route is also clearly visible on this British
Military map, top right: http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... !6!1_f001r

The picture below shows a Portuguese truck (Model Ford T?) in the north of PEA during the war in East Africa. A
single larger gun barrel can be seen on the loading area. The length of the gun barrel is estimated to be between
3.50 and 4.00 meters. On the first half of the gun barrel, a slight, thickening diameter can be seen before a raised
edge merges into the rest of the barrel, where the shield pins are also present. A further thickening can be seen in
the rearmost part, which could represent the cylindrical breech block. The mouth is thinner-walled, the caliber could
also be right. So there is a high probability that this is the 10.5-cm S.L. Krupp L/35 gun barrel, which is shown on
photo_01. Another indication is the fact that the Portuguese forces used only much smaller mountain guns during
the bush fighting in the East African campaign. Here are the two main types used, which clearly show that the two
types cannot be the gun barrel on the truck:
7-cm Schneider-Canet M. 1906/11 Mountain Gun: https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/60d3c6d ... d-Gun.jpeg
7.5-cm L/13 Krupp Mountain Gun: https://www.viajecomigo.com/wp-content/ ... Comigo.jpg

02_Portuguese truck with a 10.5-cm L/35 gun barrel (?) 1916 in northern PEA
02_Portuguese truck with a 10.5-cm gun barrel 1916 in northern PEA.png
(I can still clearly remember about details, but unfortunately no longer the origin of the source itself.)


Here is the further Portuguese text source belonging to photo_01 shown above.
“ . . . In mid-August, the artillery command became aware of a proposal from the High Command with the intention of crossing the Rovuma River with our forces on September 19th, 1916 in order to then occupy German territory north of the Rovuma Riverbank. In these operations, the artillery was given the main task of supporting the infantry, which was divided into four important columns.

The 1st Artillery Group would be concentrated at Namoto and the 2nd Group at Kionga for this purpose. An artillery division, the 1st of 1st Group's 1st Battery, commanded by the respective lieutenant, was to be incorporated into the 4th Column, which was to pass to the north bank and upstream of the Nhica.

On the same day, the 2nd Mountain Battery marched to Namoto. At the end of August, the artillery commander was ordered to select a 10.5 cm gun, which was sent from Lourenço Marques to Namoto. This gun was commanded by an ensign previously detached from the 5th Mountain Battery.

[ . . . ]
On September 26th, 1916, the commander of the 5th Mountain Battery ordered the removal of this battery from its combat position after he had justified his request.
[ . . . ]
On October 14th, 1916, the chief of staff followed the expedition to Mocímboa do Rovuma, later to join the Massassi column. This column of the 1st Battery of the 1st Mountain Group consisted of artillery. There was also a Munitions Column Artillery Ammunition Section which would be destined off Nangade for the time being.
[ . . . ]
On November 22nd, the Germans began attacking Newala with two columns of about 300 Europeans and more than 2000 Askari who had artillery at their disposal and this attack lasted until the 29th, when it was decided to withdraw our forces, which returned to Palma.
[ . . . ]
I must remember that after the capture of Newala by our forces from the Germans, the entire personnel of the 1st Mountain Artillery Battery, which was located there, was handed over by the 2nd Mountain Artillery Battery.

On December 3rd, 1916, the whereabouts of a lieutenant in artillery, one of the assistants to the commander of the 2nd Mountain Group, was unknown; He was then sent to speak to the Germans and to learn the whereabouts of said officer and other missing personnel, one of the captain's assistants to the commander of the expedition, who was accompanied by the German interpreter. The car in which they returned after carrying out the mission was robbed at our post in Matchemba on December 7th 1916, by the Germans, as they thought it was occupied by the Portuguese, and that captain was killed there."

Original Source (translated): ``A artilharia de montanha expedicionária a Moçambique em 1916´´
https://www.operacional.pt/a-artilharia ... e-em-1916/

The Portuguese officer who was killed on 7th December 1916 was Capitão João Luiz Ferreira da Silva.
03_Capitão João Luiz Ferreira da Silva † 07.12.1916
03_Capitão João Luiz Ferreira da Silva † 07.12.1916.png
Original Source: “Mortos em Cobate – Moçambique 1914-1918”: https://fliphtml5.com/lmtui/rlcr/basic


The next photo_04, from a Turkish source, shows, as far as can be seen, an identical gun version as on photo_01.
Possibly a remaining gun of the two old Ottoman battleships "Barbaros Hayreddin" (ex. "Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm")
and "Torgud Reis" (ex. "Weissenburg"), which carried eight and respectively six of the 10.5-cm S.K. Krupp L/35
guns on board, where the exact type of this center-pivot-mount, M.P.L. C/1894 or C/1897 couldn´t be determined.

04_Turkish (?) 10.5-cm S.K. Krupp L/35 gun on M.P.L.
04_Turkish 10.5-cm Krupp L-35 gun on M.P.L.png
Original Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.5_cm_SK_L/35
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _L35-1.jpg

Unfortunately, the otherwise detailed homepage of www.navyweapons does not provide any clear answers either.
Under the heading: 10.5 cm/35 (4.1") SK L/40 (such a designation is in itself contradictory - either /35 or /40) it is
now stated that on the Brandenburg battle ship class 10.5 cm SK L/35 were installed on MPL C/1891
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_41-35_skc91.php
To add to the confusion, this image is now supposed to show a newer 10.5cm L/40 gun on an older M.P.L. represent C/1891: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_4 ... un_pic.jpg


Here is an excerpt from the book that can be considered the primary source: “Die Schnelllade-Kanonen der Schiffs –
Artillerie
” from 1898. The text accompanying the photo explains that it is a 10.5 cm S.K. L/35 to M.P.L. C/1891. The
mechanism for the recoil-system can be seen quite clearly. Also clearly recognizable is the rail of the lower carriage,
which rises diagonally to the rear, and the movable carriage with tongs and supports for the trunnions. Regardless
of the fact that the two hand cranks for elevation and windage adjustment are not installed, the clear differences in
the center-pivot-carriage are immediately noticeable. This version, called M.P.L. C/1891, is not only cylindrical, but
also significantly deeper (shorter) than the version (allegedly) also called M.P.L. C/1891 on photo_01 (Portuguese)
and photo_04 (Turkish) with the vertical ones slots. The height differences in the M.P.L. could be explained by the
different elevation ranges.

05_German 10.5-cm Krupp S.K. L/35 gun on M.P.L. C/1891
05_German 10.5-cm Krupp S.K. L-35 gun on M.P.L. C-1891.png
Source: “Die 10,5 cm S.K. L/35 in M.P.L. C/1891, In: Die Schnelllade-Kanonen der Schiffsartillerie
für Einheitspatronen und ihre Munition“, Berlin 1898.
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008600802

Perhaps one of the readers has further knowledge or notes about the Portuguese gun type!?!


Will be continued with: PART II – HISTORICAL BACKGROUND AND DETAILS
Cheers Holger
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 11 Feb 2022 00:26

Hi Holger
perhaps of help:
https://interfest.de/index.php?option=c ... 26&lang=de

https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/post/a ... combatente
There the described gun in the link above is (wrongly) identified as 150mm Krupp gun

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 11 Feb 2022 01:04

Excellent work Holger!

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 11 Feb 2022 18:04

Hi Chris,
Nice that you still alive; - thought you separated from us, because of the Brexit. (– :D –)


Hi Oliver,
Thanks for both links; - Very interesting detail information and very nice Photos on both pages.

Interesting to see that real weapons experts are also still guessing; - so I am not alone. In addition,
I would also like to know how and from where the 10.5 cm S.K. L/35 gun entered the East African bush.

I am convinced that the Gun pictured on 01_photo is an L/35 version and not the longer L/40 version. The
difference is only 5 caliber lengths, but (5 x 10.5 cm) more than 50 centimetres difference would be noticeable.

Furthermore, I am convinced that 01_photo and 04_photo show a wedge-closure (Schub-Kurbel-Verschluss)
http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Ca ... tEloiB.jpg

In summary, the following Information should be added:
• The Portuguese received sixteen 10.5-cm S.K. Krupp guns between 1888 and 1897
• The guns were supplied with M.P.L. C/1894 and C/1896 naval pivot mounts.
• Of these 16 guns, eight had barrels with caliber-length L/35 and another four, L/40.
• There are still 4 examples of the L/35 version with a screw- and (!) wedge-breech.
• The protective shields were standard and were built in slightly different versions.


Regarding the mentioning of the on-board guns in `Jane’s Fighting Ships of World War I´ from 1919; -
that on the Portuguese Cruiser “Adamastor” were installed 10,5-cm S.K. L/40; is correct. The following
Photo prove that this ship was equipment already 1905 with the nearly same gun Version and protection
shield like the German Cruiser “Koenigsberg”. The wedge lock with its opening notch on the left side is
clearly visible. Only the reinforcement ring around the rear breech block, which can be seen on the other
Koenigsberg guns, is missing. However, the naval pivot mount appears to be cylindrical in shape, making
it a C/1891 version. This at least proves that the gun on 01_photo does not come from the “Adamastor”.

06_Portuguese Cruiser Adamastor with 10,5-cm S.K. L/40 on M.P.L. 1891 (?) in 1905
06_Portuguese Cruiser Adamastor with 10,5-cm S.K. L40 on M.P.L. 1891 in 1905.png
Original Source: https://laststandonzombieisland.com/tag ... adamastor/


07_Portuguese unprotected Cruiser “Adamastor” still active in 1933
07_Portuguese unprotected Cruiser “Adamastor” still active in 1933.png
Original Source:”Les Flottes de Combat – 1933”, Paris, Société maritimes et Coloniales.


Another correction on my own behalf: On 05_photo I assumed that both hand cranks for elevation and
windage are missing; - not correct! Both wheels are on the left side. Hence the spoon-shaped shield,
as protection for the gunner against recoil when firing.


If someone is interested; I added some information about the armament of the Portuguese Forces.
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/282 ... nt-3091736

Cheers Holger
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 11 Feb 2022 18:37

Tanzania wrote:
11 Feb 2022 18:04
Hi Chris,
Nice that you still alive; - thought you separated from us, because of the Brexit. (– :D –)

Cheers Holger
I survived Brexit! :D :D :D
Now back looking for Koenigberg clues!
Cheers
Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 11 Feb 2022 18:44

Actually, I'm busy with something else, but when you come along with such a gem, I can't resist. Hence I did some research:
It seems certain that "your" gun No. 1 was brought to Namoto by Lourenco Marques.

Por esta mesma data, marchou para Namoto a 2.ª Bateria de Montanha. Em fins de Agosto, foi determinado ao comandante da artilharia que mandasse escolher em Namoto o local onde deveria ser montada, sobre plataforma fixa, uma peça de 10,5cm que fora mandada de Lourenço Marques. Esta peça foi guarnecida com pessoal, então instruído, cujo o fogo seria comandado por um alferes da 5.ª Bateria de Montanha.

On the same date, the 2nd Mountain Battery marched to Namoto. At the end of August, the commander of the artillery was ordered to choose in Namoto the place where a 10.5cm piece, which had been sent from Lourenço Marques, should be mounted on a fixed platform. This piece was garrisoned by instructed personnel, whose fire was to be commanded by an ensign from the 5th Mountain Battery.


https://www.operacional.pt/a-artilharia ... e-em-1916/


Tinha os seguintes meios: 120 oficiais, 4060 praças, 2682 espingardas, 10 metralhadoras, 12 peças de Artilharia de tiro rápido, uma peça de artilharia marinha (levada até ao posto de Mamôto com grandes dificuldade) e bastantes auxiliares e carregadores.

It had the following means: 120 officers, 4060 men, 2682 rifles, 10 machine guns, 12 rapid-fire machine guns, 12 rapid-fire artillery pieces, one marine artillery piece (carried to the post of Mamôto with great difficulty) with great difficulty) and plenty of auxiliaries and porters.


https://comum.rcaap.pt/bitstream/10400. ... undial.pdf

I will try to find out how the gun came to Lourenco Marques and whether it was possibly stationed there.

EDIT: I overlooked the first link in your "text desert"
Last edited by danebrog on 11 Feb 2022 19:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 11 Feb 2022 18:50

I guess they mounted the cannon on a concrete base.
Without a firm connection to the ground, the cannon would certainly do a somersault.
Image1.jpg
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 11 Feb 2022 19:40

The gunboat NRP Rio Sado received two 10.5 cm L/35 Krupp guns (with "de Bange" breech? *) during a modernisation in 1890.
The de Bange breech is at the museums guns linked above. I'm just not sure if gun no. 1 also has such a system

https://www.navypedia.org/ships/portuga ... tamega.htm
https://www.revistamilitar.pt/artigo/945
https://forum.pages14-18.com/viewtopic. ... 3&start=20 (*)
https://www.militaer-wissen.de/canon-de ... 0/?lang=en

EDIT:
Rio Sado and sister ship Rio Tamega are eliminated: Both had Krupp guns with de Bange breech - and were stationed in Goa/India

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