Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

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gruntie
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by gruntie » 14 Jun 2013 19:11

There seems to be what could be a very, very grainy photograph of what could be the "British" gun at Hove Coastguard Station/Hove Battery in 1933. It's facing North, towards Kingsway, at "Britain from Above". You have to register in order to magnify.
EPW041371.jpg
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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 14 Jun 2013 22:36

Thanks very much for that clue!

And welcome to the forum :welcome:

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Chris

gruntie
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by gruntie » 15 Jun 2013 09:49

A bit more magnified:
5-1-10.jpg
5-12-8.jpg
It's especially galling as I remember the King Alfred centre, which was built next door, from the late 60s: the Coastguard station was still there then, and I undoubtedly walked/cycled round it, but I cannot remember it at all.
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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 15 Jun 2013 10:47

Gruntie my friend, I think you have just struck gold!

Image

On the Hove naval reserve parade ground 1933- with shield with the same hole on the gunner's left as seen in the IWM photo, looks like the widened wheels and it's got a limber ...or am I mistaken here?

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/download/EPW041371

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Chris

gruntie
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by gruntie » 15 Jun 2013 22:09

Gruntie my friend, I think you have just struck gold!
I wish, unfortunately.

It undoubtedly was there: but was it still there post-war. Take a careful note of where the gun is - ie, opposite a concrete stairway, which is fixed and immoveable - then have a look here, http://regencysociety-jamesgray.com/, at both Hove Central, and Hove West (& probably others besides). All they do, I'm afraid (& there are some dates that are clearly wrong) is prove lack of a gun (especially post-WW2). The search continues - but, I'm afraid, the "gun" undoubtedly went the same way as the iron railings that were ripped up and melted in the early stages of WW2.
(But, I would be delighted to be proved wrong.................)

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 16 Jun 2013 18:45

I think you're probably right about it being scrapped sadly. However just getting to see it in Hove was the particular nugget of gold that I was excited about!

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Chris

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 17 Jun 2013 07:19

Ever thought about the option the Hove gun came back to Mombasa?

Image

just an idea......

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 17 Jun 2013 09:38

some other compilations

Image

Image

Image

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 17 Jun 2013 11:01

danebrog wrote:Ever thought about the option the Hove gun came back to Mombasa?

Image

just an idea......
Yes, it is a possibility- they both have the Krupp carriage and a flange. It would also explain why some sources say the Bagamoyo gun went to London and others say it went to Mombassa. But did it really go to both? Did the British waste the time and effort of shipping a gun all the way back to Africa? I'll try to look into it.

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Chris

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 17 Jun 2013 12:29

Why not? A shortage in available tonnage wouldn´t be a decisive factor for the worlds largest merchant fleet of the time
And it´s a far better thought than the gun melted for some saucepans...or worse :wink:

Kallag
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Kallag » 06 Jul 2013 14:23

Another picture of the "Mahiwa" gun.
Gun ,1.jpg
Found on a forum with the following caption " This gun was blown up and abandoned by the enemy when General Sheppard, with the 2nd East African Brigade and the 2nd South African Brigade advanced to the Ruwu River. 21st March 1916. IWM Collection Copyright"

What is puzzling is that the compilation of pictures of this gun posted by 'danebrog' earlier, shows the gun with varying degrees of damage. Whist one could argue that pieces of the carriage were probably removed by troops and others passing by at various stages after it was abandoned by the Germans, the picture with the soldier posing hand on hip in front of the gun shows what appears to be a perfectly intact gun in a built up area.

The British forces would surely not have moved the gun from the built up area (town) out into the field and then tried to 'blow it up' as depicted in the picture here and then systematically removed parts for own use......or is that a possibility?
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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 09 Jul 2013 09:41

Hi Kallag
the Mahiwa gun is instead the Mkuyuni gun as proved by sources
Chris, Bob and me were able to trace some of the "history" of this gun after capture (special thanks to Holger Kotthaus for his excellent research of available German sources)

as found after destruction
Image

with wheels turned to hide the destruction there (good eyes, Bob!)
Image

without wheels prior to repair
Image

repaired and completed in Dar
Image

on display in Dar
Image

Besides the clearly recognizable DAR carriage/no flange barrel we´re barely able to identify some
characteristic scratches on the barrel itself
Main question here is actually the further whereabouts of this specimen

More to come...

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 09 Jul 2013 21:45

Great work Danebrog!!!! :thumbsup:

I never noticed the barrel scratches before.

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Chris

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Tanzania
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 16 Jul 2013 03:09

Just yesterday arrived in Daressalaam, I found in a local book, a `new´ photo with two captured
4.1 inch guns 1.WW in GEA. The left is a German howitzer (10,5-cm-leichte Feldhaubitze L/16
Modell 1898/08 Krupp) and indications prove it was lost at the 1st January 1917 at Kiderengwa.
The right gun looks like `our´ 4th Bagamojo gun, a 10,5-cm-Schnell-Ladekanone L/40 C 88 Krupp
from the KOENIGSBERG and it seems to be the photo was taken December 1918 in Daressalaam.

Image
(Supposed) Original Source:
Uganda Volunteer’s and the War, A.D. Cameron, Kampala, Uganda 1917



Like the photo below, it could be seen roofs of warehouses (at the harbor?) and peaks of some tents.
From bigger interest is, that both photos show different guns near the howitzer and some details from
the Bagamojo gun.

Image
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 16 Jul 2013 10:09

Hi Holger

excellent find! In the meantime we (Chris, Bob and me) think the gun on the picture is the same as actually displayed in Mombasa and the Bagamoyo gun went via Zanzibar to IWM and finally Hove.
We prove this by the fact the Bagamoyo/IWM/Hove gun had a shield attached and was in August 1918 already displayed in London

more to come

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