Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 18 Jul 2013 10:33

Tanzania wrote: Like the photo below, it could be seen roofs of warehouses (at the harbor?) and peaks of some tents.
Image
The Barracks and the Railway Station (and also the hotel) in DSM are in fact located at the vicinity of the harbor...
Source for Railway Hotel pic: http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/heritage ... Africa.htm

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Tanzania
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 21 Jul 2013 18:24

Confirmed! ( :milwink: )
Harbor, Askari Barracks (Kasernen) and Railway Station (with Railway Hotel) have been built in one line.
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“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 28 Jul 2013 12:27

Tanzania and Danebrog,

You are doing great work!

I think this is a great photo, I think it solves another mystery....

Image

What I'm looking at here is the K'berg gun's left wheel. Remember before we discussed how the Mombassa gun has its left wheel on the wrong way around? We wondered if it had happened during a modern reconstruction.

I think this new photo shows the left wheel on the wrong way around back in 1918- coincidentally proving our theory that this is the Mombassa gun.

This is a more recent photo of the gun from a similar angle-
Image
Note the wheel struts have a supporting strut all the way to the rim from this side.

And from the other side the supportting struts fade away halfway to the rim-
Image

I think Tanzania's "new" photo shows the left wheel struts all the way to the rim on the inside angle... Can we see it enlarged anymore to be certain?

Cheers
Chris

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 30 Jul 2013 10:57

So the Daressalam gun (of unknown origin so far) went to Mombasa and the Bagamoyo gun via Zanzibar and London to Howe.
Eventually the DAR specimen was reconstructed from repaired Massassi carriage (both have the right wheel on the same side intact)
barrel origin unkown, but they had the former repair shop at the railway facilities with any gun leftovers at hand, as Bob stated
I am more and more sure that some (better: most) afterwar display guns were frankensteined from several other guns....

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by CPT Bob » 30 Jul 2013 16:07

The old map of Dar-es-Salaam is an excellent find!

As soon as the British occupied parts of German East Africa, Indian engineers arrived to rebuild and operate the railroad. The first ones in Dar-es-Salaam probably arrived with the British in 1916. In that segregated society, the Sikh-operated “Railway Hotel” apparently catered to the Indians.

I stumbled across the “Railway Hotel” photo some time ago. I agree that they are very similar, but I will wait to “vote” until we can locate the building on the map.

The Bahnhof/Train Station is clearly marked on the map, and it is not the large peaked-roof building in the center background.

The rooftop arches on the “Railway Hotel” appears relatively close, and to see the back of the building from the Kaserne, there are only a few possible locations.

I agree….the wheel is backwards!
There were four sets of Krupp wheels. One set went to Hove, one set is in Mombasa and one set is in SA. Sergeant Southern posed with a broken wheel.

Did the Bagamoyo Gun go to London? I have a question about a “Question Mark”. (?)!

Bob
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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 30 Jul 2013 20:49

Great work Bob, I think you've proven beyond all doubt that the Bagamoyo gun went to London/Hove rather than Mombassa as conventional history would have us believe...

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 30 Jul 2013 20:57

danebrog wrote:So the Daressalam gun (of unknown origin so far) .... Eventually the DAR specimen was reconstructed from repaired Massassi carriage (both have the right wheel on the same side intact)
barrel origin unkown, but they had the former repair shop at the railway facilities with any gun leftovers at hand, as Bob stated
I am more and more sure that some (better: most) afterwar display guns were frankensteined from several other guns....
I don't think the Dar gun is of unknown origin. I thought your barrel scratches showed it was Mkuyuni?

Cheers
Chris

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 31 Jul 2013 11:13

Chris
Mkuyuni had DAR carrriage, nearby is a second gun with Krupp carriage

Mkuyuni went to an unknown location, the other one with Krupp carriage most probably to Mombasa, whereas the Bagamoyo gun was evacuated by the RN two days after capture to Zanzibar and then further to London

Bob
the missing "question mark" at the IWM specimen is probably caused by fresh paint as the guns were pretty worn after several years of bush warfare - not really desirable for museal exhibit

EDIT
if anyone needs another Map with descriptions:
Image
or this one:
Image

Kallag
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Kallag » 04 Aug 2013 14:34

Dar A.jpg
The guns in the picture above were photographed in an open yard/lot behind some buildings located along a street at the time called Unter Den Akazien. Today the street is called Samoro Machel Avenue.

The following diagram gives the approximate location of the guns (orange) with the red arrow showing the direction towards which the gun picture was taken.
Dar B.jpg
The light blue triangle depicts the prominent gable wall (with two vertical ventilation slots) which are seen in some of the other photographs given here.

The blue and pink arrows show the directions of two street views of Unter Den Akazien. The building outlined in the broken green line is located hard up against the the triangular gabled building. The opposite side of the 'green' building can be seen in the backround of the 'gun picture'. The row of ventilation openings of the 'green ' building appears to be similar on the street facing and yard facing sides.
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Kallag » 04 Aug 2013 14:45

The balance of the pictures of the previous post given here.
Dar E.jpg
Dar F.jpg
Dar C.jpg

Now that we know that the guns were photographed some distance away from the Barracks, it will be good to know what the significance was of the property where the guns were actually photographed.....was it a temporary storage facility or a Military facility of some sort?
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Tanzania
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 05 Aug 2013 05:19

Wow, you all have done a great search for this one photo and it seems to be that Kallag find the solution
for the final position. I will drive afterwards to the city and try to find some of the present buildings and locations
Cheers Holger Kotthaus
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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Chris Dale
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Chris Dale » 05 Aug 2013 09:45

Great work Kallag, I think you've found the spot!

Holger if you're in town can you look around the old Governor's house to see if there's any signs of the old Kahe gun that used to be on display there. I doubt very much that anything remains but you never know...

Cheers
Chris

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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by CPT Bob » 05 Aug 2013 11:16

I salute you, sir! Excellent work.

It looks like “the perfect spot”; it is not far from the Bahnhof, and it is close to Headquarters. It is just off a main street, so it is easily accessible while still being "out of sight". Tactically, it is more “secure” in the center of town. It is very likely that several adjacent German-owned buildings were “commandeered” by one side or the other. (The Quartermaster needed an office. Troops needed billeting.)

Perhaps the Germans did use the vacant lot as a “wartime” supply depot prior to the arrival of the British in 1916. The Brits certainly did afterwards.

Bob

PS: Holger, if you have the opportunity, please go and look around the “workshop-side” of the Bahnhof; there may still be a set of large steel wheels rolling around.

PSS: Talk to local fishermen or divers; “Dumping in deep water” has always been an efficient disposal method.

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Tanzania
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by Tanzania » 05 Aug 2013 15:43

Many changed in 100 years. I try to find the right perspective for the following photos.
But´s not a great help; only the railway station could be identified realy.

Image
Image


Image
Image


Image
Image


Dear Bob
Good idea to ask locals at the workshop-side of the railway and fishermen´s (and maybe divers.)
Tomorrow morning I have an appointment at the survey-map department for another matter, but
afterwards I have a few days’ time, to follow this helpful recommendation.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984

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danebrog
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Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg

Post by danebrog » 06 Aug 2013 09:58

Seems, we have an outstanding research team at work!

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