Artillery gun near Njombe in Southern Tanzania
Re: Artillery gun near Njombe in Southern Tanzania
After evacuation of Tabora Abt. Wintgens raided Camp Ngomiyi and captured two naval guns of unknown origin...pretty harmless suggestion indeed
Re: Artillery gun near Njombe in Southern Tanzania
Thanks to the GWF some addition information and data could be added to this gun:
Origin of Q.F.12 PR. 8 CWT., 10/1916 at Ngominji – 11/1916 Lupembe?!?
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... 6-lupembe/
There are indications that this gun at Lupembe came from the British Protected cruiser HMS Hyacinth, and was used before the
event at Ngominyi, during the British advance along the Northern Railway in German East Africa.
Here is the source for my first presumption, that this gun is a 12.5 pdr Maxim-Nordenfelt gun.
12.5 pdr Maxim-Nordenfelt gun (The photo is correct and show a 12 pdr Gun, but the description is wrong)
https://www.google.de/search?q=May+Jack ... _Wq7g7FIXM:
The photo from the link picture not the same gun, but this is a 12.5pdr
'May Jackson' and the 12.5pdr outside the District Commissioners Office at Kasama in 1930
https://www.google.de/search?q=May+Jack ... 8SFBwnIbRM:
Here is also a 12½ pounder Breech Loading Gun which should show the same type at Kasama:
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/d/d ... 9-p178.jpg
Cheers Holger
Origin of Q.F.12 PR. 8 CWT., 10/1916 at Ngominji – 11/1916 Lupembe?!?
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... 6-lupembe/
There are indications that this gun at Lupembe came from the British Protected cruiser HMS Hyacinth, and was used before the
event at Ngominyi, during the British advance along the Northern Railway in German East Africa.
Here is the source for my first presumption, that this gun is a 12.5 pdr Maxim-Nordenfelt gun.
12.5 pdr Maxim-Nordenfelt gun (The photo is correct and show a 12 pdr Gun, but the description is wrong)
https://www.google.de/search?q=May+Jack ... _Wq7g7FIXM:
The photo from the link picture not the same gun, but this is a 12.5pdr
'May Jackson' and the 12.5pdr outside the District Commissioners Office at Kasama in 1930
https://www.google.de/search?q=May+Jack ... 8SFBwnIbRM:
Here is also a 12½ pounder Breech Loading Gun which should show the same type at Kasama:
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/d/d ... 9-p178.jpg
Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
Re: Artillery gun near Njombe in Southern Tanzania
Seems we FINALLY found these guns! Quite excellent!
So we've left just the 8-cm field gun and the 4.7
So we've left just the 8-cm field gun and the 4.7
Re: Artillery gun near Njombe in Southern Tanzania
I am aware of two types of 4,7-cm: original German and captured British,So we've left just the 8-cm field gun and the 4.7
But please help me to understand: the 8-cm field gun?
Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
Re: Artillery gun near Njombe in Southern Tanzania
The missing C73. Lost trace of her in mid 1917. Narungombe seems out of question...
Re: Artillery gun near Njombe in Southern Tanzania
Here is a summary of the background details of these two guns from the GW in, what is now Tanzania:
British 12-pounder 8-cwt 3 inch (7,62-cm) L/40 QF Maxim-Nordenfelt Royal Navy Landing Guns
It is very likely that both guns came from the British cruiser HMS HYACINTH, which originally had nine of
these 12 pdr 7,62-cm QF guns on board and was stationed at the East African coast since 14. September
1915. Both guns were used in the further campaign against GEA as, No. 6 Field Battery (Logan's Battery).
Ludwig Boell map_Iringa - Kambi ya mboga - Ngominji - Madibira - Malangali
In September and October 1916, the Western units under Generalleutnant Kurt Wahle were on the retreat
from Tabora and appeared unexpectedly in the rear of the British troops in the Iringa area. Thereupon both,
the troops under Lieutenant-General Jacob L. van Deventer in the north-east of Iringa, as well as the units
of Major-General Edward Northey in the south-west direction, fell partly on the defensive and were forced
to form mixed units for fortificated places in Kambi ya mboga, Ngominji, Malangali, Madibira and Lupembe.
In the middle of October 1916 the `Detachment Wintgens´ appeared in this area, North-west of Iringa and
forced on 22. October at Ipogogo a half-platoon of the R.N.R. (Rhodesian Native Regiment) to surrender.
Two days later the 29 F.-K. of the Detachment appeared for Reconnaissance purposes west of Ngominji.
After `Detachment Wintgens´ appeared in front of Ngominji, 26. October, General Wahle gave the order
to attack the next day. On the morning of 29. October 1916, this fortified base was conquered. In addition
to the two 7,62-cm L/40 QF Guns, 200 rounds ammunition, a radio station and equipment were captured.
But the most important thing for the really starving `Schutztruppe´ was the large quantities of food supplies.
(Ngominji was one of the Lost Places in the formally GEA. 48 km West south-west of Iringa on the way
to Madibira and about 8 km north-west of today's Mafinga. We have been there in 2005 and searched
for clues, but without any results. This place was abandoned long time ago and do not exists anymore.)
On the same day the `Detachment Wintgens´ had to move in an “Eilmarsch” (fast march) towards Iringa
and on 30. October 1916, the two captured guns were deployed in front of Kambi ya mboga. But already
on the following day, the 31. October, the Detachment marched back in a South-western direction and
one 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun, which was in a more poor condition, was sunk in a swamp near Ngominji
on 1. November 1916. Since there are no evidence of the existence of further 7,62-cm L/40 QF Guns, it
can be assume that the British dug up this gun barrel after the war and transported it to the, not far away
Iringa, where it is still today stands; - below.
The First 7,62-cm L/40 QF Gun-Location in Iringa, GPS Coordinates: 07°46´48,9”S - 35°41´53,7”E
A photo and comments was already mentioned by CPT Bob, danebrog and MC Heunis here:
Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg viewtopic.php?f=73&t=198646&start=675#p2186940
The remaining Gun-barrel was installed on a frame which is from today’s time and can be seen
now in the open inner-courtyard of the renovated old building, which is nowadays classified as the
`German Boma´, but was probably before the German hospital and is now a museum. Photos of the
original, still existing German Boma (formally Military Station) can be seen here from a real specialist:
http://www.boma-kalender.de/20.html 10. Tag: Iringa - Morogoro
Source: https://goshenisafaris.com/wp-content/u ... 146175.jpg
Google Position: https://www.google.de/maps/@-7.7801473, ... a=!3m1!1e3
The rough comparison of both gun-barrels; up in Lupembe and below in Iringa prove the identical gun type.
Original Source + own photo: https://dandmintanz.files.wordpress.com ... c04988.jpg
Under this Link can be seen dozens (!) of excellent detail photos from this gun-type in Canadian service.
http://silverhawkauthor.com/artillery-1 ... s_963.html
British 12-pounder 8-cwt 3 inch (7,62-cm) L/40 QF Maxim-Nordenfelt Royal Navy Landing Guns
It is very likely that both guns came from the British cruiser HMS HYACINTH, which originally had nine of
these 12 pdr 7,62-cm QF guns on board and was stationed at the East African coast since 14. September
1915. Both guns were used in the further campaign against GEA as, No. 6 Field Battery (Logan's Battery).
Ludwig Boell map_Iringa - Kambi ya mboga - Ngominji - Madibira - Malangali
In September and October 1916, the Western units under Generalleutnant Kurt Wahle were on the retreat
from Tabora and appeared unexpectedly in the rear of the British troops in the Iringa area. Thereupon both,
the troops under Lieutenant-General Jacob L. van Deventer in the north-east of Iringa, as well as the units
of Major-General Edward Northey in the south-west direction, fell partly on the defensive and were forced
to form mixed units for fortificated places in Kambi ya mboga, Ngominji, Malangali, Madibira and Lupembe.
In the middle of October 1916 the `Detachment Wintgens´ appeared in this area, North-west of Iringa and
forced on 22. October at Ipogogo a half-platoon of the R.N.R. (Rhodesian Native Regiment) to surrender.
Two days later the 29 F.-K. of the Detachment appeared for Reconnaissance purposes west of Ngominji.
After `Detachment Wintgens´ appeared in front of Ngominji, 26. October, General Wahle gave the order
to attack the next day. On the morning of 29. October 1916, this fortified base was conquered. In addition
to the two 7,62-cm L/40 QF Guns, 200 rounds ammunition, a radio station and equipment were captured.
But the most important thing for the really starving `Schutztruppe´ was the large quantities of food supplies.
(Ngominji was one of the Lost Places in the formally GEA. 48 km West south-west of Iringa on the way
to Madibira and about 8 km north-west of today's Mafinga. We have been there in 2005 and searched
for clues, but without any results. This place was abandoned long time ago and do not exists anymore.)
On the same day the `Detachment Wintgens´ had to move in an “Eilmarsch” (fast march) towards Iringa
and on 30. October 1916, the two captured guns were deployed in front of Kambi ya mboga. But already
on the following day, the 31. October, the Detachment marched back in a South-western direction and
one 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun, which was in a more poor condition, was sunk in a swamp near Ngominji
on 1. November 1916. Since there are no evidence of the existence of further 7,62-cm L/40 QF Guns, it
can be assume that the British dug up this gun barrel after the war and transported it to the, not far away
Iringa, where it is still today stands; - below.
The First 7,62-cm L/40 QF Gun-Location in Iringa, GPS Coordinates: 07°46´48,9”S - 35°41´53,7”E
A photo and comments was already mentioned by CPT Bob, danebrog and MC Heunis here:
Re: Missing Gun from the SMS Königsberg viewtopic.php?f=73&t=198646&start=675#p2186940
The remaining Gun-barrel was installed on a frame which is from today’s time and can be seen
now in the open inner-courtyard of the renovated old building, which is nowadays classified as the
`German Boma´, but was probably before the German hospital and is now a museum. Photos of the
original, still existing German Boma (formally Military Station) can be seen here from a real specialist:
http://www.boma-kalender.de/20.html 10. Tag: Iringa - Morogoro
Google Position: https://www.google.de/maps/@-7.7801473, ... a=!3m1!1e3
The rough comparison of both gun-barrels; up in Lupembe and below in Iringa prove the identical gun type.
Original Source + own photo: https://dandmintanz.files.wordpress.com ... c04988.jpg
Under this Link can be seen dozens (!) of excellent detail photos from this gun-type in Canadian service.
http://silverhawkauthor.com/artillery-1 ... s_963.html
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
Re: Artillery gun near Njombe in Southern Tanzania
After the first 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun, had to be left after only three days in German possession at
Ngominji on 1. November 1916, the second gun was handed over to Oberleutnant d.R. Dr. Alfred
Vogel. The `Battery Vogel´ now consisted of the second British 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun, a Belgian
7-cm Staint-Chamond L/16,7 Mountain-gun, which were already captured at Tabora and an original
German 3,7-cm Revolver-gun. Hauptmann Max Wintgens must have been happy to hand over this
relatively heavy gun. In the past he had already given larger guns to other Detachments few times,
as these only hindered his mobility and manoeuvrability, which was his greatest strength in the bush.
A 10,5-cm Konigsberg gun would have been a real horror for him and inevitably led to disobedience.
On 8. November the `Detachment Zingel´ and the` Detachment von Langenn´ enclosed at Malangali
the strongly fortified position of the main supply-depot of Lieutenant-Colonel E. Rodger Column of the
2nd S.A.R. The `Battery Vogel´ was also used off Malangali. This created the strange circumstance
that the captured, second British 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun was used on the German side against the
South Africans, and a, in GSWA captured German 7.5-cm L/17 Mountain-Gun M.08 was used by
the surrounded South Africans, and shot back. Also strange, but confirmed by several reports from
German eyewitnesses, outside of the fortification, 70 pieces of 7,5-cm grenades from the captured
German guns were `recaptured´ and used in the British 7.62 cm L/40 QF Gun against the besieged.
The 5th South African Mounted Riflemen used each two captured 7.5 cm L/17 M.08 Mountain Guns
within the `Column Rodger´ and the `Column Murray´ through the campaign in German East Africa.
Further backgrounds you find in Chris Dales homepage: The 7.5cm Schutztruppe Mountain Guns:
http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk ... aingun.htm
Meanwhile, the `Detachment Wintgens´ marched from the 5. November on, in a south-westerly direction
to Lupembe. The `Battery Vogel´ had to leave the 3,7-cm Revolver Gun behind on 8. November due to
a lack of porters and marched within the `Detachment Zingel´ and the` Detachment von Langenn´ also
towards Lupembe. In addition to the 'Column Murray' and the unit under Captain C.H. Fair, the `Column
Hawthorn´ reached also Lupembe. Here the two artillery opponents (the British 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun
and German 7.5-cm L/17 Mountain Guns) were also used against each other for the last time on both
sides. The fight for Lupembe was stopped after four days on 15. November with heavy losses on both
sides. Here, the last 56 shells of this British Gun were fired by the German side from a north-westerly
position of Lupembe. Due to a lack of ammunition and porters, the British 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun was
left by the Germans at Lupembe on the evening of the 17. November 1916, without the breech block.
The Second 7,62-cm L/40 QF - Location in Lupembe, GPS Coordinates: 09°16´45,3”S - 35°14´31,2”E
The remaining gun-parts are in the courtyard of the Lupembe mission school and administration building:
Source: Google position: https://www.google.de/maps/place/Lupemb ... d35.235729
If someone want to visit Lupembe, ask bevor at the Southern Diocese in Njombe. http://www.elct-sd.org/organisation/sou ... se-njombe/
In 2017 I spoke with Bishop Isaya Japhet Mengele, (he knows about the history of this German Name.)
Here are two photos of the old German church in Lupembe, where there were fierce fighting from 11.
to 15. November 1916. Left, the situation through the construction phase in 1898 and right, July 2017.
Sources: Picture Archive University Frankfurt – 7821_3131_0411_0040, and own photo in July 2017.
http://www.ub.bildarchiv-dkg.uni-frankf ... 1_0040.jpg
Ngominji on 1. November 1916, the second gun was handed over to Oberleutnant d.R. Dr. Alfred
Vogel. The `Battery Vogel´ now consisted of the second British 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun, a Belgian
7-cm Staint-Chamond L/16,7 Mountain-gun, which were already captured at Tabora and an original
German 3,7-cm Revolver-gun. Hauptmann Max Wintgens must have been happy to hand over this
relatively heavy gun. In the past he had already given larger guns to other Detachments few times,
as these only hindered his mobility and manoeuvrability, which was his greatest strength in the bush.
A 10,5-cm Konigsberg gun would have been a real horror for him and inevitably led to disobedience.
On 8. November the `Detachment Zingel´ and the` Detachment von Langenn´ enclosed at Malangali
the strongly fortified position of the main supply-depot of Lieutenant-Colonel E. Rodger Column of the
2nd S.A.R. The `Battery Vogel´ was also used off Malangali. This created the strange circumstance
that the captured, second British 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun was used on the German side against the
South Africans, and a, in GSWA captured German 7.5-cm L/17 Mountain-Gun M.08 was used by
the surrounded South Africans, and shot back. Also strange, but confirmed by several reports from
German eyewitnesses, outside of the fortification, 70 pieces of 7,5-cm grenades from the captured
German guns were `recaptured´ and used in the British 7.62 cm L/40 QF Gun against the besieged.
The 5th South African Mounted Riflemen used each two captured 7.5 cm L/17 M.08 Mountain Guns
within the `Column Rodger´ and the `Column Murray´ through the campaign in German East Africa.
Further backgrounds you find in Chris Dales homepage: The 7.5cm Schutztruppe Mountain Guns:
http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk ... aingun.htm
Meanwhile, the `Detachment Wintgens´ marched from the 5. November on, in a south-westerly direction
to Lupembe. The `Battery Vogel´ had to leave the 3,7-cm Revolver Gun behind on 8. November due to
a lack of porters and marched within the `Detachment Zingel´ and the` Detachment von Langenn´ also
towards Lupembe. In addition to the 'Column Murray' and the unit under Captain C.H. Fair, the `Column
Hawthorn´ reached also Lupembe. Here the two artillery opponents (the British 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun
and German 7.5-cm L/17 Mountain Guns) were also used against each other for the last time on both
sides. The fight for Lupembe was stopped after four days on 15. November with heavy losses on both
sides. Here, the last 56 shells of this British Gun were fired by the German side from a north-westerly
position of Lupembe. Due to a lack of ammunition and porters, the British 7.62-cm L/40 QF Gun was
left by the Germans at Lupembe on the evening of the 17. November 1916, without the breech block.
The Second 7,62-cm L/40 QF - Location in Lupembe, GPS Coordinates: 09°16´45,3”S - 35°14´31,2”E
The remaining gun-parts are in the courtyard of the Lupembe mission school and administration building:
If someone want to visit Lupembe, ask bevor at the Southern Diocese in Njombe. http://www.elct-sd.org/organisation/sou ... se-njombe/
In 2017 I spoke with Bishop Isaya Japhet Mengele, (he knows about the history of this German Name.)
Here are two photos of the old German church in Lupembe, where there were fierce fighting from 11.
to 15. November 1916. Left, the situation through the construction phase in 1898 and right, July 2017.
http://www.ub.bildarchiv-dkg.uni-frankf ... 1_0040.jpg
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984