July 20th Conspirators and the Jews

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sylvieK4
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July 20th Conspirators and the Jews

Post by sylvieK4 » 20 Jul 2005 23:26

(I posted the following in the lounge in response to a July 20th commemorative thread, but would like to post it here so that more members can see it and hopefully respond. I hope this is the appropriate section.)

Does anyone here know, what was the position of the July 20th conspirators regarding the Jews? Had they been successful and taken the reigns of power, would they have significantly altered the policies set in motion by Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich et. al.?

Beyond latter day speculation about what they may or may not have done, was there anything actually documented or attested to by the conspirators about what they specifially intended to do with the Jewish population then under German control?

I recall reading (many years ago) that the conspirators planned great changes in terms of the war and the German government's approach to foreign policy, but not to the "Final Solution"; that they did not intend specifically to stop the persecutions and killings of Jews. I have not seen anything since to either support or refute this claim. Does anyone here know of any documentation and/or testimony (of any kind) from any members of the conspiracy bloc telling of what they intended to do?

Thanks.

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 21 Jul 2005 10:42

As far as I remember the books about 20th July & its persons one of things they considered as very important was to break the power of Himmler , RSHA & SS totally . That alone would have changed the policy against jews , I think . And having in mind WHAT people took part in the conspiration of 20th July I think everthing about "Endlösung" would have been stopped immediatly after gaining the power in the Reich .


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Post by Alecci » 21 Jul 2005 11:20

To put an end to the persecution of the Jews was in fact one of the main goals of the conspirators. To occupy the concentration camps and death camps was one of the first objectives, to be carried out without delay, once control of the capital and power of government was safely in the hands of the conspirators.

The general view among the conspirators was that the persecution of the Jews, their internment in concentration camps and death camps was a crime against humanity and a stain on the shield of honor of Germany. Therefore it simply had to be stopped, regardless of the conspirators' personal opinion of the Jews and their culture.

For some of the conspirators, as for example Captain Axel Freiherr von dem Bussche-Streithorst, the regime's policy towards the Jews and other people regarded as Untermenschen was the key motivator.

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Post by szopen » 21 Jul 2005 13:39

For Poles it may be noted that at least some of the conspirators did consider some limited form of independency for Poland, though they thought that Poznan and Pomorze should stay within Germany.

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 21 Jul 2005 17:34

Öhm , Pommern was German territory , even before WW2 ...

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Post by Molobo » 21 Jul 2005 18:26

For Poles it may be noted that at least some of the conspirators did consider some limited form of independency for Poland, though they thought that Poznan and Pomorze should stay within Germany.

Yes the fact that many of the conspirators were in fact German nationalist is overlooked this days.

Öhm , Pommern was German territory , even before WW2 ...

You are wrong Pomorze was part of Poland before WW2(and before Partitions btw)
For ethnic composition look :
http://raven.cc.ku.edu/~eceurope/hist55 ... 11pic2.jpg
Pomorze -18 % of Germans in 1921
Poznan-16 % of German in 1921
So as we can see the conspirators were radical nationalists in their desire to continue occupation of Polish areas.
Their attitude towards Jews was probably out of necessity.The plot was made when Germany begun losing the war, not when it commited atrocities.

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Post by Alecci » 21 Jul 2005 18:35

All the conspirators were nationalists, more or less at least. I would not call them radical though.

Most of the conspirators were born and raised during those times when Pommerania and Prussia belonged to Germany, of course they felt that those parts should stay with Germany. It has nothing to do with a desire to occupy Polish areas though, not in that meaning at least.

Their attitude towards the Jews was not out of necessity, and the conspiracy was not formed when Germany begun losing the war. The latter part has been discussed widely many times on this and other WW2-forums, and anyone that has anything more than basic knowledge of the conspiracy knows this.

For those conspirators that belonged to the inner circle, a Germany losing the war only had any importance in the fact that they would probably get more support from the German population.

It is true that a good deal of conspirators joined the conspiracy when and because Germany was losing the war, but this does not apply to those in the inner circle, many of which had belonged to the conspiracy before the outbreak of the war or even before Hitler came to power.

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 21 Jul 2005 18:43

Molobo , what you call "Pomorze" was Westpreussen , not Pommern ...

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Post by Molobo » 21 Jul 2005 18:51

It has nothing to do with a desire to occupy Polish areas though, not in that meaning at least.

Hmm since that areas were in fact Polish till 1815 and Poznan was autonomous Polish region till 1846, and Germans composed only 16 % of its population it can't be described in any other way as continued occupation.

and the conspiracy was not formed when Germany begun losing the war. The latter part has been discussed widely many times on this and other WW2-forums, and anyone that has anything more than basic knowledge of the conspiracy knows this.

Do you mean Canaris ? As far as I know the reasons for his stance was that he believed Germany couldn't win at the time as it wasn't ready.
Molobo , what you call "Pomorze" was Westpreussen , not Pommern ...

What you call Westpreussen is Pomorze Gdańskie.
there was a discussion on this before/in short, German cartographers promoted political names that expressed territorial conquests of Prussia/
Look here for the discussion
viewtopic.php?t=67752&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=pomorze&start=150

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 21 Jul 2005 19:06

Sorry , friend , it IS "Pommern" ! According to your description you have to talk about Wielkopolska , not Poznan ..

:D

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Post by Molobo » 21 Jul 2005 19:10

Sorry , friend , it IS "Pommern" ! According to your description you have to talk about Wielkopolska , not Poznan .

You can talk about that in different topic, however you should distinguish political names from administration and geographical names.

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 21 Jul 2005 19:19

Pommern was an Herzogtum for several centennials ...

Why shuld we not call it so ?

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Post by Alecci » 21 Jul 2005 19:19

Molobo wrote:Do you mean Canaris ? As far as I know the reasons for his stance was that he believed Germany couldn't win at the time as it wasn't ready.


No, I don't mean Wilhelm Canaris. Canaris' role in the conspiracy has, in my view, been exaggerated.

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Post by Qvist » 22 Jul 2005 09:44

Alecci is correct - While some important figures, notably von Stauffenberg, turned against Hitler during the war, several central figures in the conspiracy, for instance general Beck, plotted actively against him already before the war.

Naturally, like almost all German officers, the conspirators were what we would consider nationalists (a sentiment from which you, Molobo, do not appear to be wholly free either, if I may say so :) ). Most Germans were, and they were not as a nation unique in this. It is useful also to remember that territorial grievances against Poland had widespread popular and political support in Germany even before Hitler, and was not essentially a nazi invention - unsurprisingly, given that the two countries had clashed militarily over the issue after WWI. Such grievances was a part of Stresemann's foreign policy too. How justified these grievances were is a different matter, but in any it was not a mark of any special extremism - quite the contrary.

cheers

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Post by Michate » 22 Jul 2005 15:04

Öhm , Pommern was German territory , even before WW2 ...


You are wrong Pomorze was part of Poland before WW2(and before Partitions btw)

For ethnic composition look :
http://raven.cc.ku.edu/~eceurope/hist55 ... 11pic2.jpg
Pomorze -18 % of Germans in 1921
Poznan-16 % of German in 1921


Jan-Hendrik is not wrong, the territory which is referred to as Pommern in German does denote the territory west of what Poles call Pomorze, up to the former grand dukeness of Mecklenburg. Certainly this territory had had nothing to do with Poland for many centuries and the large majority of the population were German. The Western part of it, which is called Vorpommern, is still German (the state is called Mecklenburg-Vorpommern), an uncle of mine is living there.

BTW, according to the same source you linked in 1910 42,5% of the population in Pomorze were Germans. Seems to have been pretty bi-national.

Regards,
Michate

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