the Ukrainian insurgent army,collaborators or resistants?

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
paratatruc
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: 24 Nov 2004 19:24
Location: Paris

the Ukrainian insurgent army,collaborators or resistants?

Post by paratatruc » 22 Nov 2005 19:34

The contreverse wether the UPA did no more during the war then slaughtering Jewish and Polish civilians,suing the Soviet partisans, and killing the great general Vaatutin, or actually took an active part in the resistance inside the occupied Ukraine, ?

G.
Member
Posts: 98
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 03:34
Location: USA

Post by G. » 23 Nov 2005 22:42

There are bad people [anti-Semites] in all organizations and I'm sure there were some in the UPA... The real objective for them though [UPA,UNA and OUN etc.] was an independent/free Ukraine. They got there training and weapons where they could and did the best they could with the manpower and equipment they had. They never surrendered and fought on well into the 1950s..
Even at last years 'Orange Revolution' in Kiev they were there!

Larry D.
Financial supporter
Posts: 3757
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Post by Larry D. » 23 Nov 2005 23:27

The answer might lie in the fact that of the Germans, Poles, Ukrainian nationalists, Jews, Russians, communists in general, Hungarians, Romanians, etc., only one speaks well of them. And that's the Ukrainian nationalists, of course. But be that as it may, they are widely condemned today for their wartime collaboration with the Germans and the atrocities they committed against their enemies, especially the Jews and the Poles. The fact that many of the UPA guerrillas who were finally driven out of Galicia in 1948 ended up working for the U.S. Army in Europe doesn't seem to change the international attitude toward them today, and may even have made it worse.

paratatruc
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: 24 Nov 2004 19:24
Location: Paris

Post by paratatruc » 24 Nov 2005 08:21

where were they the most actif, in Galizia or eastern Ukraina?

User avatar
Musashi
Member
Posts: 4656
Joined: 13 Dec 2002 15:07
Location: Coventry, West Midlands, the UK [it's one big roundabout]

Post by Musashi » 24 Nov 2005 10:10

paratatruc wrote:where were they the most actif, in Galizia or eastern Ukraina?

Western Ukraine of course.

POSTOYAN
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: 15 Nov 2005 09:19
Location: RUSSIA.The city of PERM - New Jersey,Runnemede

Post by POSTOYAN » 24 Nov 2005 12:50

The UPA was anti-semit organization,that"s true. But they were fighting against German and Russian too. UPA and OUN are very different organization.(do not miss).
OUN was at German service,UPA was against both sides.
First time UPA was fighting against Russians,then -Germans,at last against Russian again(after Germans left Ukraine)
Here is the site,you can read it in English(it has English version-just change language above)
http://upa1.netfirms.com/army1uk1.htm

next in English http://infoukes.com/upa/

Larry D.
Financial supporter
Posts: 3757
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Post by Larry D. » 24 Nov 2005 14:18

Postoyan -

UPA vs OUN. You are right. I completely forgot that they were two distinctly different organizations. Thank you for reminding us.

--Larry

paratatruc
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: 24 Nov 2004 19:24
Location: Paris

Post by paratatruc » 26 Nov 2005 12:45

Thanks everybody,
I may remember the facts wrongly, but I think that the 14 SS division "Galitzia" was surrounded by the red army during "Bagration", and was finnaly rescued by Ukrainian nationalists.
Which one of the organisation accomplished that(U.p.a or O.u.n)?
Which organisation was commanded by Stepan Bandera,and how did he succeed to remain free after his arrestation by the german in 1941?
Why are the two organisation oftenly consider as an indinstinct force?Did they operate in the same area?
Is there any book/site on this subject available in french,english or german?

Thank you again,

Larry D.
Financial supporter
Posts: 3757
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Post by Larry D. » 26 Nov 2005 13:31

Paratatruc -

Bandera was OUN.

This subject is quite complicated, both politically and militarily, so you are best advised to get some books on the subject. The standard work is still John A. Armstrong's Ukrainian Nationalism 1939-1945, 2d edition, New York, 1963. Since then, there have been a number of other studies but none of these are said to equal Armstrong's work.

Here is a link to other books on the subject:

http://books.stonebooks.com/cgi-bin/fox ... ts?1003078

--Larry

paratatruc
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: 24 Nov 2004 19:24
Location: Paris

Post by paratatruc » 27 Nov 2005 11:03

thanks,

User avatar
Askold
Member
Posts: 1815
Joined: 23 Mar 2002 08:30
Location: Ukraine

Post by Askold » 04 Dec 2005 23:53

Interesting topic, but its full of myths:

slaughtering Jewish


- This idea was developed by Soviet authorities to discredid UPA, later it was picked up by Poles and Wiental, as a general lable to portray Ukrainian nationalists as Jew hating nazis. The fact is, UPA not only did not attack the Jews, but even hosted number of them in the forest from the German persectutions. On top of this Jews even served in UPA. If anyone has ever read The Chronicles of UPA (Hronika UPA) - they frequently mention number of Jews serving as medics in UPA field hospitals.

Larry D.
But be that as it may, they are widely condemned today for their wartime collaboration with the Germans and the atrocities they committed against their enemies, especially the Jews and the Poles.


- This is another myth. Can you please provide me with example of single joint German-UPA action? The reason for this myth is that the second commander of UPA was Tarash Shuhevych, who in the first place was commander of Leg. Nachtigal - a German sponsored unit. When the unit was dispanned and Shuhevych was to be arrested (by the GERMANS for being member of OUN), Shuhevych escaped and joined UPA. Also number of Ukrianian police units from German army deserted to UPA side - but this DOES NOT make UPA a collaboratist force.

Musashi:
Western Ukraine of course.


- Actually UPA was most active in Northern Ukraine. Full of forests and swamps, it was an ideal place to wage partizan warfare. Galicia was still under strong German control so UPA actions there were very limited. To this I would also like to act that UPA was strongly present in Central Ukraine and few groups were formed in such far away places as Dnipropetrovsk.


P.S. Would also like to clarify few points on OUN. Yes, OUN cooperated with the Nazis, but only in the 30's (ie. OUN members were taken in SA for training ect.). The reason for this, was the general belief of the time that Germany would provide Ukraine with independence. When Germans attacked SU - OUN proclaimed independence, which within three days was CRUSHED by the Germans. Massive arrests of OUN members followed. This was the end of OUN-German cooperations., which siesed one week after beginning of the war.

P.P.S. I would also like to add that Bander himself was a prisoner in the Saksenhausen concentration camp.

Larry D.
Financial supporter
Posts: 3757
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Post by Larry D. » 05 Dec 2005 00:45

Askold -

I dunno, this stuff about killing Jews, Poles and collaboration with the Nazis is in a lot of Western history books. I guess the Ukrainian nationalists need to rise up around the world and stage protest marches against all of this slander that has been going on for the past 60 years. Maybe they could sue all of the university professors and other authors as well as all of those nasty Jewish organizations who have made these claims. If they won, that could bring millions and maybe billions of dollars into the government in Kiev and make life better for all of the Ukrainian people. If I wasn't so old, I'd even help you out. But I guess your first step would be to do a 5-year survey of all of the Western history books that have libeled the UPA and the OUN so you can identify the authors and the publishers responsible for them. You are good in English so maybe you could lead that effort. Then you can move against these slanderers and detractors in the courts. This may be a great opportunity, Askold, and you should give it some thought. Maybe your first target should be the very wealthy board of trustees of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington because they are said to have a lot of documents on this subject. It would be a great service to the world to bring an end to this madness and get the record straightened out. We have all been terribly mislead for all of these years and this horrible injustice needs to be corrected.

Best regards,

--Larry

User avatar
Georgien
Member
Posts: 265
Joined: 30 May 2005 18:42
Location: Tbilisi, Georgia

Post by Georgien » 06 Dec 2005 04:03

Dear Larry,

Lets put aside all the claims by the western historians and recognize the fact that Soviet regime had any means to make Ukrainian "nationalists" as criminals, bandits and nazi collaborators. The word "benderovec" and Stepan Bendera himself was viewed by Soviet citizens as Nazi collaborator who turned against Soviet Ukraine and against his own people. After the collapse of Soviet regime, we started to learn different story about Bendera.

Im will not argue that no war crimes happened. There is no war or a single side in it which did not commit any war crimes.
But i can openly argue that Stepan Bendera had a right cause and had nothing to do with anti semitism or polish killings. Lets not forget, Polish persecuted Ukrainians before world war II. Later we learned that Bandera was not a pro nazi collaborator. In fact he opposed both Soviet and Nazi regimes (equally demonic if not greater).

Bendera cause was not only a Ukrainian one. It included all nations who suffered under Soviet tyranny. UPA had Armenians, Georgians, Azeri, Osetians, North Caucasians who did not join UPA for anti Semitism or to kill Poles. It was most dangerous movement for Soviet regime because it did not only focus on liberation of Ukraine but also of other republics under Soviet occupation.

Larry, Ukraine will generate its own billions. It has strong potential to grow and advance as a leading power in Eastern Europe. I wish her all the best because Ukraine truly deserves brighter future. She has became very dear for many other nationalities who shared her fate.

Can you please name me one side in world war II which did not commit any crimes against humanity? Why don’t you mention that Russians killed Jews and Poles more than any other side besides Germans?

How about 6 million Ukrainians who were starved to death by Soviet regime intentionally? How about Trotsky who wanted to "reduce" the population of Ukraine?

UPA and UON had many positive sides. Much more than negative. They had guts to fight both the Nazis and Soviets. And many veterans from UPA today have nothing to do with killing of the Jews and Polish. Do you condemn them too as war criminals?

All the best Larry! lets go back to Canaris discussion :) You know many things about him. :)

Larry D.
Financial supporter
Posts: 3757
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 23:03
Location: Winter Springs, FL (USA)

Post by Larry D. » 06 Dec 2005 15:10

Georgien wrote:

UPA and UON had many positive sides. Much more than negative. They had guts to fight both the Nazis and Soviets. And many veterans from UPA today have nothing to do with killing of the Jews and Polish. Do you condemn them too as war criminals?


I agree with most of what you say, Georgien, but I think you misunderstood the purpose of my admittedly sarcastic post. Our friend Askold cast dispersion on my earlier post, referring to what I had said as a "myth." My reply was an attempt to make him see that the overwhelming body of Western scholarly history on the subject clearly states that it is not myth. I just finished reading Edward B. Westermann's Hitler's Police Battalions: Enforcing Racial War in the East (Lawrence: University Press of Kansas, 2005), in which the author cites a number of examples of German police with Ukrainian militia carrying out massacres of Jews in Galicia and western Ukraine 1941-43. His use of the expressions "assisted by Ukrainian auxiliaries", "together with Ukrainian auxiliaries", "carried out by Ukrainian militia under German police supervision", etc., etc., appear throughout his narrative. So for Askold to imply that these unfortunate events were postwar "myths" is absurd. Westermann's study, by the way, is based almost exclusively on surviving primary documentation plus the trial testimony of hundreds of former Ordnungspolizei and Schutzpolizei that is on file at the Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen in Ludwigsburg. Many if not most of the Ukrainian "militia" and "auxiliaries" mention in Westermann were members of OUN-Melnyk.

As for OUN-Bandera and the UPA, your understanding and mine largely coincide. But by the same token, it is not correct to suggest that there was absolutely no collaboration at times and by certain small groups and members within OUN-Bandera and the UPA with the German authorities 1942-45. And, during the period 1939 and before and the end of 1941, there was most certainly collaboration between the entire OUN organization and the Germans, especially the Abwehr.

As far as who is guilty of war crimes and who isn't, I think that is a matter of individual investigation and determination. Again, you may misunderstand me. I am not a "war crimes" obsessee. With 60 to 65 years gone by, I really could care less. That's for the touchy, feely, squeezy crowd who like to hang out on the "Holocaust and War Crimes" sub-forum and not for me.

Cheers,

--Larry

User avatar
Georgien
Member
Posts: 265
Joined: 30 May 2005 18:42
Location: Tbilisi, Georgia

Post by Georgien » 06 Dec 2005 18:14

Dear Larry,

Im not going to argue with you due to the fact that you know much more than i do overall. I might add that in the book "Rising 44" it describes polish insurgents taking over telegraph building in central Warsaw. They took prisoners and mostly they were Ukrainians. From many witness accounts of the uprising, Ukrainians did take part in mass killings of Polish civilians. The ones which were identified as ethnic Ukrainians had "U" signs on their backs in order to be spared from death by SS divisions and POHA. Many claim that majority of these people with Us on their backs were polish who wanted to survive the uprising. This is an unfortunate fact. And also, as you have mentioned there were many incidents of Jewish slaughter by the Ukrainians in the west. It was more due to anti Semitic views of some members of these units and revenge (during the Bolshevik occupation of Ukraine, Jews collaborated with Russians in mass killings of Ukrainians intellectuals and academics).

But I can still state that the cause itself had no agenda on anti Semitism or polish problem. It was mainly anti Soviet/Russian movement (UPA and UON). And again, UPA and UON had more positive side of their struggle than negative.

Today, Ukraine officially recognizes veterans of UPA. Some of these men truly deserve respect and admiration.

Return to “Life in the Third Reich & Weimar Republic”