Sons of Italian WW2 Veterans in the Falklands War

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carlodinechi
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Re: Sons of Italian WW2 Veterans in the Falklands War

Postby carlodinechi » 04 Feb 2017 12:59

all the "sources" presented here claim that it was nothing more than the particular opinion of an individual, not a general perception of the British military


Actually British Military Headquarters underestimated the Argentinians in the forthcoming Special Forces patrol battles that would takes place on the slopes of Mounts Simon & Kent, that would've resulted in the serious loss of British Sea King helicopters & Royal Marine Commandos tasked with taking Kent possibly costing Britain the war in the process, had Brigadier Julian Thompson not ignored Northwood:

Top brass 8,000 miles away in Northwood, impatient for victories, questioned the need to use up valuable time on reconnaissance. But it was just as well the commanders on the ground dug their heels in, because when the SAS did go in they quickly realised that strong enemy patrols were operating in the area.

Major General Julian Thompson, who commanded 3 Commando Brigade, wrote later that without the friendly special forces' presence around the landing zone, the Argentine patrols 'would have had a turkey shoot on the vulnerable helicopters and the troops as they jumped out, temporarily disorientated in the darkness; the operation would have been a disaster.'
(http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/heritage/ke ... -1-1272106 Key battles at Top Malo and Mount Kent)

Major Jose Ricardo Spadaro (standing, without cap), Italo-Argentinian commander of the 65-strong 601st National Gendarmerie Special Forces Squadron that suffered six KIAs on 30 May (shot down in a Puma) in the Argentinian attempt to derail the British advance on Kent http://malvinas25.rssing.com/chan-6101334/all_p2.html.


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screen shot windows http://malvinas25.rssing.com/chan-6101334/all_p2.html

Major-General Mario Luis Castagneto, Italo-Argentinian commander (Major) of the 64-strong 601st Commando Company, with cap in hand in the post-war years. In the middle is Colonel Horacio Fernando Lauria, a Spanish-Argentinian officer with the rank of Lieutenant in the 602nd Commmando Company. Lieutenant Lauria as part of Captain Ferrero's patrol destroyed with a rifle-grenade a GPMG team from Lieutenant Stewart's 3rd Troop on the night of 9/10 June.


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free picture hosting http://www.lanacion.com.ar/59024-oficia ... -a-niembro
Last edited by carlodinechi on 04 Feb 2017 14:19, edited 5 times in total.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Sons of Italian WW2 Veterans in the Falklands War

Postby Ironmachine » 04 Feb 2017 13:25

carlodinechi wrote:Actually British Military Headquarters underestimated the Argentinians in the forthcoming Special Forces patrol battles that would takes place on the slopes of Mounts Simon & Kent, that would've resulted in the serious loss of British Sea King helicopters & Royal Marine Commandos tasked with taking Kent, had Brigadier Julian Thompson not ignored Northwood:

Your new "evidence" shows that while British Military Headquarters may have underestimated the Argentinians, commanders on the ground did not, so as I said it was not a general perception of the British military. Also your new "evidence" does not show in any way that the British Military Headquarters underestimated the Argentinians for their supposed half-Italian ancestry. And your new "evidence" also shows that the Argentinians also underestimated the British (maybe due to their Anglo-Saxon ancestry? :lol: ).

carlodinechi
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Re: Sons of Italian WW2 Veterans in the Falklands War

Postby carlodinechi » 04 Feb 2017 13:56

supposed half-Italian ancestry. And your new "evidence" also shows that the Argentinians also underestimated the British


The authors of Police, Race and Ethnicity: A Guide for Police Services also agree that in a way, Roman Eagles took on the Royal Navy in the South Atlantic:

Many of the Argentine pilots praised by the British in the Falklands war for their bravery were Italian by descent.
(Police, race and ethnicity: a guide for police services, Brian K. Cryderman, Augie Fleras, Christopher N. O'Toole, Ontario Committee for the Standardization of Police Education in Race and Ethnic Relations, p. 257, Butterworths, 1998)

And yes i suppose the Argentinian generals also underestimated the British, maybe because Argentinian militias in the form of Patriots seeking independence defeated in just a couple of hours of fighting 12,000 Redcoats under Lieutenant-General Sir John Whitelocke in the Battle of Buenos Aires in 1807.

Also we shouldn't forget that Maximo Nicoletti, whose father served in the Italian Navy's Special Forces during WW2, attempted to blow up British ships anchored off Gibraltar. (http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.ph ... lands-war/ Argentina planned to blow up warship in Gibraltar during the Falklands War)

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Ironmachine
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Re: Sons of Italian WW2 Veterans in the Falklands War

Postby Ironmachine » 04 Feb 2017 19:44

carlodinechi wrote:The authors of Police, Race and Ethnicity: A Guide for Police Services also agree that in a way, Roman Eagles took on the Royal Navy in the South Atlantic:
Many of the Argentine pilots praised by the British in the Falklands war for their bravery were Italian by descent.
(Police, race and ethnicity: a guide for police services, Brian K. Cryderman, Augie Fleras, Christopher N. O'Toole, Ontario Committee for the Standardization of Police Education in Race and Ethnic Relations, p. 257, Butterworths, 1998)

Yes, in a way "Roman Eagles" took on the Royal Navy in the South Atlantic. In your very crazy way of seeing things, that is.
If I were half as chauvinistic as you, I could say that it was their half-Spanish (Argentinian) enviroment, education and culture that allowed them to perform in such a brave way. But I'm not. Anyone, from anywhere, with any kind of blood running through his veins, can act bravely in some circunstances; and anyone, from anywhere, with any kind of blood running through his veins, can act cowardly in some other circunstances. There is nothing magical in the "Roman blood".
Also, we shouldn't forget that this shows that the British had no problem in honoring bravery even in people that were "Italian by descent".

carlodinechi wrote:And yes i suppose the Argentinian generals also underestimated the British, maybe because Argentinian militias in the form of Patriots seeking independence defeated in just a couple of hours of fighting 12,000 Redcoats under Lieutenant-General Sir John Whitelocke in the Battle of Buenos Aires in 1807.

So:
1) The Argentinians actually did what you accuse the British of doing.
2) It seems the Argentinians did far better fighting the British when there was no "Roman blood running through their veins", so perhaps the British actually had a point when they supposedly were more afraid of the Argentinians' half-Spanish ancestry than of their half-Italian one.

carlodinechi wrote:Also we shouldn't forget that Maximo Nicoletti, whose father served in the Italian Navy's Special Forces during WW2, attempted to blow up British ships anchored off Gibraltar. (http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.ph ... lands-war/ Argentina planned to blow up warship in Gibraltar during the Falklands War)

Yes, we shouldn't forget that he attempted it. We shouldn't forget that he failed. We shouldn't forget that he actually had more success attacking Argentinian warships. We shouldn't forget that he betrayed his associates. We shouldn't forget that he has been a terrorist and a thief.
https://eloficiodeescribir.wordpress.com/2013/01/27/maximo-nicoletti-de-la-santisima-trinidad-a-la-operacion-algeciras/
http://www.clarin.com/zona/Nicoletti-reclama-devuelvan-ultimo-golpe_0_Skz40ZC6vXx.html
Now, was any of that caused by his "Roman blood"?

carlodinechi
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Re: Sons of Italian WW2 Veterans in the Falklands War

Postby carlodinechi » 06 Feb 2017 07:23

We shouldn't forget that he betrayed his associates. We shouldn't forget that he has been a terrorist and a thief.


Have to agree with you on this one, just like Italy had its betrayers in WW2, Argentina had the Ultra Left Montoneros & ERP Guerrilla Armies trying to convert Argentina into another Cuba or North Korea before the military stepped & many guerrillas & leftist civilian supporters in the so-called 'Dirty War' of the 1970s vanished often in the middle of the night.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Sons of Italian WW2 Veterans in the Falklands War

Postby Ironmachine » 06 Feb 2017 08:48

carlodinechi wrote:Have to agree with you on this one, just like Italy had its betrayers in WW2, Argentina had the Ultra Left Montoneros & ERP Guerrilla Armies trying to convert Argentina into another Cuba or North Korea before the military stepped & many guerrillas & leftist civilian supporters in the so-called 'Dirty War' of the 1970s vanished often in the middle of the night.

That the Montoneros and ERP were terrorists and killers does not make the Military Junta any better. The generals of the Argentinian dictatorship have more than enough blood on their hands to answer for. If the Montoneros wanted to convert Argentina into another Cuba, then the Junta wanted to convert Argentina into another Nazi Germany (or perhaps, considering the smell of this thread, into another Fascist Italy).
Anyway, it is already too evident what your preference is ("just like Italy had its betrayers in WW2" :roll: ). Still, your statement that:
many guerrillas & leftist civilian supporters in the so-called 'Dirty War' of the 1970s vanished often in the middle of the night.

is a disgusting euphemism, if ever there was one. They were tortured and killed, purely and simply. If you can approve a murder because it fits your "political" bias, then IMHO you have a big problem and I have nothing more to tell you. I can cope with "Roman blood", I can't with condoning murder. Perhaps moderators should take a look here.

carlodinechi
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Re: Sons of Italian WW2 Veterans in the Falklands War

Postby carlodinechi » 06 Feb 2017 20:37

I can cope with "Roman blood", I can't with condoning murder.


You must be kidding me?, I'm not backing the murder of leftist guerrillas & their support base hidden among the civilian population. The law should have been applied to determine the appropriate jail sentences or maybe the terrorists & their fan base expelled to Cuba or North Korea, whatever.

If you want to start another thread about the crimes of the left & right in Italy & Argentina, you are welcome but please desist from posting this stuff here, for I just want to cover the Italian influence in the Falklands/Malvinas Campaign, & while we are at it, the British, Irish, German, French, Peruvian, Israeli influence/role (on both sides) in order to make things more interesting for readers.

Anyway I just discovered that Manfred Jentges, a German national volunteered to fight for Argentina & helped fix serious problems to do with the Franco-German Roland SAM launcher deployed in defence of Stanley Airport. Jentges was flown to Stanley on 14 May & spent four days or more working on the Roland, according to Lieutenant Carlos Regalini, the Italo-Argentinian officer in charge of the Roland. (http://www.taringa.net/comunidades/mili ... vinas.html Los extranjeros que nos ayudaron en Malvinas...)

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Ironmachine
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Re: Sons of Italian WW2 Veterans in the Falklands War

Postby Ironmachine » 07 Feb 2017 09:21

carlodinechi wrote:You must be kidding me?, I'm not backing the murder of leftist guerrillas & their support base hidden among the civilian population. The law should have been applied to determine the appropriate jail sentences or maybe the terrorists & their fan base expelled to Cuba or North Korea, whatever.

Then you should begin calling things by their proper name. They did not "vanished often in the middle of the night", they were killed. Also you should refrain from making statements about "traitors" and they being "expelled to Cuba or North Korea". They were neither more traitors nor less Argentinians than Galtieri and his colleagues.

carlodinechi wrote:If you want to start another thread about the crimes of the left & right in Italy & Argentina, you are welcome but please desist from posting this stuff here,

No, I have no interest in such a thread. And I will desist as soon as you stop giving me reasons for doing it.

carlodinechi wrote: I just want to cover the Italian influence in the Falklands/Malvinas Campaign, & while we are at it, the British, Irish, German, French, Peruvian, Israeli influence/role (on both sides) in order to make things more interesting for readers.

That's a noble enterprise, and will be even nobler if you refrain from using epithets like "Roman Blood" or "Roman Eagles".

carlodinechi wrote:Anyway I just discovered that Manfred Jentges, a German national volunteered to fight for Argentina & helped fix serious problems to do with the Franco-German Roland SAM launcher deployed in defence of Stanley Airport. Jentges was flown to Stanley on 14 May & spent four days or more working on the Roland, according to Lieutenant Carlos Regalini, the Italo-Argentinian officer in charge of the Roland. (http://www.taringa.net/comunidades/mili ... vinas.html Los extranjeros que nos ayudaron en Malvinas...)

It seems there is a notable lack of references to his outside Argentinian sources, which all appear to copy from the same original source. Also, if you are interested, there is some controversy about the involvement of French technicians (or not) in the effort to put into the service the Argentian Exocet missiles:
http://www.upi.com/Archives/1982/07/24/French-technicians-reportedly-helped-Argentina-during-Falklands-war/3834396331200/
http://fc95d419f4478b3b6e5f-3f71d0fe2b653c4f00f32175760e96e7.r87.cf1.rackcdn.com/6A8E18139CB14414991726B02E3B5E20.pdf
http://www.aviacionargentina.net/foros/aviacion-naval-o-coan.23/6705-la-trama-secreta-de-los-codigos-exocet-en-1982-a.html
http://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias/2012/03/120308_francia_reino_unido_argentina_falkland_malvinas.shtml

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Sheldrake
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Re: Sons of Italian WW2 Veterans in the Falklands War

Postby Sheldrake » 14 Feb 2017 22:19

carlodinechi wrote:
Those of us on the mobilization schedule to deploy had no misconceptions about the challenges of launching an opposed amphibious landing 8,000 miles away within range of land based air forces.


And yet the Royal Navy went to war without Airborne Early Warning (AEW)?, very smart move on the part of the British Admiralty I suppose, when taking into account the comparatively large size of the Argentinian Air Force:


The British were very aware of their lack of AEW. On my FAC course was an RAf officer from a Shackleton squadron who told me that his unit had been prepared to fly a one way mission to provide cover for a six hour period for the landings itself. This suicide mission was replaced by the u8se of covert OPs reporting air movements from Argentinean airfields.

The British 3rd Parachute Battalion even thought the advance to Mount Longdon & Wireless Ridge would be no battle, proof is the hastily organized stretcher parties & lack of ammunition during the start of the Battle of Longdon as revealed by Warrant Officer John Weeks:

"I only had one medic, so on the net to Major Patton I said that i needed more and I needed stretcher-bearers who could carry out my casualties to the RAP ... I then went back to see the casualties and although Corporal Probets was still doing a fantastic job, I was still getting no joy on the net trying to get somebody to help. I needed people to get the injured down to the RAP because they were losing blood ... The Second-in-Command had his problems, because he'd been ordered to bring ammunition up on the stretchers ... So some of my injured guys were there seven to eleven hours, which is a long time." (Above All, Courage, Max Arthur, pp. 303-304, Cassell Military Paperbacks, 2002)


I will be inviting a friend of mine to talk about the Falkands in one of my tower fund raisers. He was the air adjutant of 3 Para and led a scratch D company in the bayonet charge in that battle. You can put this point to him.

I don't think anyone underestimated the power of modern weapons, even in the hands of ill fed and led conscripts, and many Argentinian units were far from ill led.

Much of your quotes are the result of 1) The chaotic realities of operations or 2) improvisations forced on the British due to long term run down of amphibious capacity.


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